Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Old Hippy]

Ah, but it is.

We are approaching the territory of "those who do not understand history are condemned to repeat it", including the apparent rise of those who would believe Niggle Farridge in my own benighted island.

God help us.... shame she doesn't exist.

I recently saw leavers saying 'Churchill would be proud' about the Brexit result, seems they never heard about his United states of Europe speech made in 1946 just after WW11

 

[JohannaK]

11? Boy did I miss stuff in those history classes.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Pretty sure it is.

Ecsc=/=EU

Ah, but it is.

We are approaching the territory of "those who do not understand history are condemned to repeat it", including the apparent rise of those who would believe Niggle Farridge in my own benighted island.

God help us.... shame she doesn't exist.

Getting rid of the garbage pile that the EU is will not result in Germany attacking France

 

[AdrienIer]

Ecsc=/=EU

Getting rid of the garbage pile that the EU is will not result in Germany attacking France

The EEC and the EU were built over the Ecsc. Of course they're different, but the Ecsc is the foundations upon which they were built.

No one said Germany was going to war with France the minute the EU is destroyed, but the presence of the EU undoubtedly lowers the chance for intra-european wars in the next hundred years.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Nato does a much better job at that

 

[AdrienIer]

Trump basically wants to disassamble nato. I'd rather keep a double safety check

 

[EnglishEdward]

I recently saw leavers saying 'Churchill would be proud' about the Brexit result, seems they never heard about his United states of Europe speech made in 1946 just after WW11

I have just re-read the speech.

http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

There is nothing I can find in it to suggest that Winston Churchill thought
that the UK ought to be part of his concept of a United States of Europe.

 

[EgonSpengler]

There was an article in the Post this morning about a post-vote bump in tourism for some British seaside towns that have been on the skids lately. They cited Margate as an example, where the Tate recently opened a new museum.

 

[JohannaK]

When I was in London a couple weeks ago all the papers noted an increase in tourism attributed to the dive the pound had taken since the vote.

 

[Chukchi Husky]

I noticed that when I was on holiday. I was in one of the more remote parts of Britain and there was a lot of French and German tourists, along with a lot more English tourists than usual.

 

[Old Hippy]

I have just re-read the speech.

http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

There is nothing I can find in it to suggest that Winston Churchill thought
that the UK ought to be part of his concept of a United States of Europe.

It is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom.

We must build a kind of United States of Europe

apart from the inclusive we...

and again

If we are to form the United States of Europe or whatever name or form it may take, we must begin now.

he seemed to include Britain and dose not exclude it

 

[EnglishEdward]

That is just your chosen interpretation.

The finishing text

Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America, and I trust Soviet Russia - for then indeed all would be well - must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine.

very strongly implies for me that the UK would not be part of that union.

 

[JohannaK]

But that in cpnjunction with those 'we's, seem rather to indicate that Great Britain must lead the project. While it would clearly be out of bounds to include the US, USSR, and Commonwealth in the USE, that does not necessarily position the UK outside of it either.

 

[EnglishEdward]

But that in cpnjunction with those 'we's, seem rather to indicate that Great Britain must lead the project. While it would clearly be out of bounds to include the US, USSR, and Commonwealth in the USE, that does not necessarily position the UK outside of it either.

Encouraging other countries to unite or form a union does not
imply that one intends to be one such united country or union.

For instance IIRC the UK supported a United Netherlands from outside.

If the UK was to say it was in favour of Korean unification,
that would not imply that the UK expected to be part of united Korea!

His speech does not consider the problem of how Britain could be a member
of two unions British Commonwealth and European Union with separate
geography, rules and circumstances, at the same time; such an omission
probably reflects that he did not aspire for GB/UK to be part of the USE.

Churchill also spoke in favour of other improbable unions,
union of France and Britain, union of Britain and USA.

But taking such rhetoric out of context is pointless.


This Leaver has not claimed Churchill as a Brexiter, and I don't think that the
Remainers can fairly claim Churchill as a supporter of an EU including the UK.

 

[JohannaK]

I will acknowledge that it is possible that the use of 'we' is purely rhetoric. His support for those other outlandish unions including Britain, however, could indicate that it is not.

 

[Arakhor]

This Leaver has not claimed Churchill as a Brexiter, and I don't think that the Remainers can fairly claim Churchill as a supporter of an EU including the UK.

Why would you want to? Not only was he out of office before the Treaty of Rome, he's also dead. C. Julius Caesar would probably have supported a united Europe too.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Why would you want to?

I never said I wanted to.

 

[JohannaK]

C. Ivlivs Caesar, you mean.

 

[Verbose]

Nato does a much better job at that

NATO would have been a means of keeping Germany down and disarmed at French demand, probably British too — with growing German resentment down the line — without what eventually became the EU.

 

[Takhisis]

C. Julius Caesar would probably have supported a united Europe too.

Well, he did his best to get there.