Is Civ IV a Racist and Immoral Game? HA!

[Desert-Fox]

It is very pathetic that people want to find racism everywhere.
I've read in news that in England racism is also when a kid in kindergarten doesn't want to eat a food what belongs into foreign cultures.. and when they say phew! For example if the kid will find fried bugs on his plate and it seems ugly he cannot reach as normal people would do. And that's the fault of European Left-Wing politics who promote the political correctness because then they get easy votes from immigrants. Also it's very strange that the kids must read homosexual fairy tales where a prince falls in love into another prince, that's sick!

So my suggestion would be that society shouldn't think about the pseudo problems like racism(where it is not real) and homophobia, instead they should deal more with real issues.

 

[The Fishman]

I've read in news that in England racism is also when a kid in kindergarten doesn't want to eat a food what belongs into foreign cultures..

It is racist to refuse to eat foreign food because its foreign. Its not really that bad when a little kid does it though because they don't know any better.

and when they say phew!

No it isn't.

For example if the kid will find fried bugs on his plate and it seems ugly he cannot reach as normal people would do.

Nobody feeds fried bugs to little kids, and most people in the country react to fried bugs with disgust, not just kids.

And that's the fault of European Left-Wing politics who promote the political correctness because then they get easy votes from immigrants.

That people complain about things like this is the fault of silly tabloid newspapers who like to go about publishing scare stories about kids eating bugs.

Also it's very strange that the kids must read homosexual fairy tales where a prince falls in love into another prince, that's sick!

I do agree with you here that teaching kids about sex that early in life is a bit wrong.

So my suggestion would be that society shouldn't think about the pseudo problems like

racism(where it is not real)
and homophobia, instead they should deal more with real issues.

Racism and homophobia are real issues.

 

[Desert-Fox]

Racism and Homophobia may be issues but as some people handle it now it is somewhat pseudo problem. It is like when feminists create new issues where women are discriminated when a lot of the problems are really silly. I don't know is it issue in everywhere but in my country some feminists found problem in men and women toilet. Because women are little longer in toilet then feminists found that their toilet must be bigger because otherwise queues to there are longer. But when women commit makeups behind the mirrors in the toilets and waste time there that's not problem

Ok I didn't want to tell about that. In my point of view, racism is problem when one race is humiliated by another not when you in some reason need to choose between 2 people (one is black and another is white) and when you choose white then black complains that you're racist. Also racism IS when black does something against whites.

 

[The Fishman]

Racism and Homophobia may be issues but as some people handle it now it is somewhat pseudo problem.

I don't really understand what you are saying. If anything, racism (or 'xenophobia', in case Skadistic comes to complain about semantics) has increased in Europe over the past few years.

It is like when feminists create new issues where women are discriminated when a lot of the problems are really silly. I don't know is it issue in everywhere but in my country some feminists found problem in men and women toilet. Because women are little longer in toilet then feminists found that their toilet must be bigger because otherwise queues to there are longer.But when women commit makeups behind the mirrors in the toilets and waste time there that's not problem

Women don't take longer because they put on make up in the toilets. I don't know about in Estonia, but here toilet cubicles don't have mirrors in them. Apparently, women take longer because have to use the cubicles rather than urinals, meaning that they all have queue up to use them.

Ok I didn't want to tell about that. In my point of view, racism is problem when one race is humiliated by another

Yes.

not when you in some reason need to choose between 2 people (one is black and another is white) and when you choose white then black complains that you're racist.

Nobody says that that is racist, the problem is when you systematically choose white people most of the time. There was something a while ago when a load of CVs with indentical qualifications were sent out to various companies. Some of them had Muslim names on them, and some had English names. The companies mainly chose the ones with English names, which is preferring one ethnic group (English people) over another (Pakistanis and other Muslim-majority groups).

Also racism IS when black does something against whites.

Yes, I agree here as well, as long as the thing is done because of race. If a crime gang in America that is mainly black goes and has a fight with a white gang, that's not really racially-motivated, they would have still done it if the other side was the same race as them.

 

[Psyringe]

There was something a while ago when a load of CVs with indentical qualifications were sent out to various companies. Some of them had Muslim names on them, and some had English names. The companies mainly chose the ones with English names

Yep, there has been a lot of research on this. Just recently a study dealt with teachers: Teachers were sent a set of essays, and the researchers randomly mixed students' names on them. Turned out that the same essays consistently got worse grades when the (fake) name of the student hinted at an ethnic background different from "European American".

I don't think the teachers would've labaled themselves as racists, but as this study (and many others) show, it's not quite that easy.

 

[squid1111]

Racism IS a real problem, altough the article takes it too far.

And seriously, this is turning into a conservative vs. liberal.

 

[Desert-Fox]

I don't really understand what you are saying. If anything, racism (or 'xenophobia', in case Skadistic comes to complain about semantics) has increased in Europe over the past few years.

There is a reason, it is not only racism but it is hatred against immigrants because a lot of them cause problems and people do not want more. If they can be civilized as the native people then that would be ok.

Women don't take longer because they put on make up in the toilets. I don't know about in Estonia, but here toilet cubicles don't have mirrors in them. Apparently, women take longer because have to use the cubicles rather than urinals, meaning that they all have queue up to use them.

But it has been said that men visit toilets more frequently than women.
And in Estonia here are mirrors in toilets, not in the boxes where the pot is but where washbowl is.

Nobody says that that is racist, the problem is when you systematically choose white people most of the time. There was something a while ago when a load of CVs with indentical qualifications were sent out to various companies. Some of them had Muslim names on them, and some had English names. The companies mainly chose the ones with English names, which is preferring one ethnic group (English people) over another (Pakistanis and other Muslim-majority groups).

If there wouldn't be any reason then it is racism but if the nation has experiences that Muslims may be not as effective than the others. For example people do not trust gypsies because they steal and soothsay a lot. That's the similar reason why not women is not taken where job needs lifting heavy things. In one word if the other nation is same trustful than natives and still is being discriminated then it is a problem.

 

[The Fishman]

There is a reason, it is not only racism but it is hatred against immigrants because a lot of them cause problems and people do not want more. If they can be civilized as the native people then that would be ok.

Immigrants are hard-working and civilised people. If we didn't have immigrants then there would be nobody to do jobs which native workers don't want to do.

But it has been said that men visit toilets more frequently than women.

Source?

And in Estonia here are mirrors in toilets, not in the boxes where the pot is but where washbowl is.

Then why would there be a big queue for the toilets then?

If there wouldn't be any reason then it is racism but if the nation has experiences that Muslims may be not as effective than the others.

That is still racist, its stereotyping.

For example people do not trust gypsies because they steal and soothsay a lot. That's the similar reason why not women is not taken where job needs lifting heavy things.

Again, this is stereotyping, which is wrong. There is something called 'equal opertunities', which means that you can't hire or fire people based on silly and arbitary prejudices.

In one word if the other nation is same trustful than natives and still is being discriminated then it is a problem.

All nations are just as trustful as any other. No culture values deceit or laziness.

What if you tried to get a job in another country, but your employer was a bigot who refused you because he thought Estonians were untrustworthy? What would you do then?

 

[Desert-Fox]

Immigrants are hard-working and civilised people. If we didn't have immigrants then there would be nobody to do jobs which native workers don't want to do.

Some of them are hard-working civilized people but some of them refuse to do work, they hang on undergrounds, rob people. And that's the fact that Muslims have far more rights in Europe than Europeans in Arabian lands(OT).
Perhaps it is not racial problem but the fact that immigrants refuse do adopt native rules and want to push their owns. They refuse to learn official language because it would be easier that natives speak theirs. In Estonia we have a lot of Russians and face same problem, so it is not Racial problem it is more National. But still the minorities have to adopt the native rules or re emigrate to their homeland if there is better.

Source?

Hmm, that was a newspaper article a few years ago in Estonian language so it is hard to prove it.

Then why would there be a big queue for the toilets then?

Sometimes there are boxes where you go in, then there is washbowl and then there is a door to the pot

That is still racist, its stereotyping.
Again, this is stereotyping, which is wrong. There is something called 'equal opertunities', which means that you can't hire or fire people based on silly and arbitary prejudices.

That's almost same that if you can choose between a guy who haven't been punished and who have been jailed 2 times. I think majority of us trust the first one. The Gypsies have their own culture and traditions. If they are too much depended of their family and cannot make things their own then you have to take them as a whole not as a single person, you have less risk. We Europeans are individualists and it is easier to give us equal chances.

All nations are just as trustful as any other. No culture values deceit or laziness.

Have you heard what Robert Mugabe did in Zimbabwe where before his rule there were White educated farmers and the life was OK in that country. But the land was forcibly taken away from the farmers, distributed to blacks and the farmers were forced to leave. Before that the life expectancy was about 60 years but now it is 34-37. Inflation is about 100 000 percent per year. So in conclusion in Africa there is possible to live without foreign aid if the people want it.

What if you tried to get a job in another country, but your employer was a bigot who refused you because he thought Estonians were untrustworthy? What would you do then?

I don't know places where Estonians are untrustworthy except in the Russia but that's another issue. It is because of Bronze Night. But no Estonians will go to work there. But we would be untrustworthy in foreign lands then there should be a reason and I would accept it.

 

[The Fishman]

Some of them are hard-working civilized people but some of them refuse to do work, they hang on undergrounds, rob people. And that's the fact that Muslims have far more rights in Europe than Europeans in Arabian lands(OT).

Natives and the children of immigrants also loiter around and rob people. Criminality isn't caused by being an immigrant, its caused by being disadvantaged.

Perhaps it is not racial problem but the fact that immigrants refuse do adopt native rules and want to push their owns. They refuse to learn official language because it would be easier that natives speak theirs. In Estonia we have a lot of Russians and face same problem, so it is not Racial problem it is more National. But still the minorities have to adopt the native rules or re emigrate to their homeland if there is better.

If you want to get a decent job then you have to speak the native language, you just can't work properly without it. Most of the people I know who haven't tried (or suceeded) to learn English are old men who don't work and just come with their families.

As for adopting native customs, I don't really see it as essential unless your customs offend native people. For example, if somebody who lives in some remote rainforest tribe and wears only a loincloth decides to move to a western country, he should really start wearing clothes. But if you just wear different clothes I don't see an issue.

Hmm, that was a newspaper article a few years ago in Estonian language so it is hard to prove it.

Sometimes there are boxes where you go in, then there is washbowl and then there is a door to the pot

I don't understand why that would cause queues.

That's almost same that if you can choose between a guy who haven't been punished and who have been jailed 2 times. I think majority of us trust the first one.

Yes, but not all gypsies are criminals, only ones who do criminal things. If a big caravan of gypsies showed up and started leaving litter, stealing and generally causing disruption, I wouldn't employ them, but if they weren't doing those things I would.

The Gypsies have their own culture and traditions. If they are too much depended of their family and cannot make things their own then you have to take them as a whole not as a single person, you have less risk.
We Europeans are individualists and it is easier to give us equal chances.

Since when are Europeans any more individualistic than gypsies? That just sounds like a made up excuse for not teating the Europeans as a group as well...

That argument leads to some kind of crazy loop anyway: you are saying that because Europeans follow their culture of individualism, they don't follow their culture as tightly as others. Which would therefore mean that they aren't individualistic as they don't follow their individualistic culture, a complete contradiction!

Have you heard what Robert Mugabe did in Zimbabwe where before his rule there were White educated farmers and the life was OK in that country. But the land was forcibly taken away from the farmers, distributed to blacks and the farmers were forced to leave. Before that the life expectancy was about 60 years but now it is 34-37. Inflation is about 100 000 percent per year. So in conclusion in Africa there is possible to live without foreign aid if the people want it.

That just means that Mugabe is tin pot dictator who gives people jobs because of their race rather than their qualifications. Which sounds an awful lot like right-wingers in Europe...

I don't know places where Estonians are untrustworthy except in the Russia but that's another issue. It is because of Bronze Night. But no Estonians will go to work there. But we would be untrustworthy in foreign lands then there should be a reason and I would accept it.

In Britain lots of people think eastern Europeans can't be trusted with work as they think they don't do their jobs properly. I don't think this myself, of course, but lots of people have the same attitude to immigrants that you have, only they complain about Pakistanis and eastern Europeans rather than Russians.

This is all kind of off-topic anyway though...

 

[CyberChrist]

The term Racism is very abused these days to the point where we have long ago gone past the point of the Boy who cried Wolf.

Racism is when you judge a person or group of persons based more or less solely on their racial heritage - it is NOT refusing food or any other produces because it may or may not come from a foreign country, it is NOT pointing out and investigating problems that may or may not exist due to immigration, it is NOT feeling threatened by and speaking out against the customs and beliefs of other religions - and it certainly isn't producing a game like Colonization emulating a certain era of human history (assuming it doesn't make use of unbalanced racial stereotypes).

Now, some of these NOT examples may very fall into other equally problematic definitions (nationalism, xenophobia, religious persecution etc.), but to claim they are cases of Racism is to admit ignorance about the true meaning of the term Racism.

Racism is a serious issue, please stop watering down the term by crying Wolf at all opportunities and/or by supporting those who do.

 

[Desert-Fox]

Natives and the children of immigrants also loiter around and rob people. Criminality isn't caused by being an immigrant, its caused by being disadvantaged.

And they are disadvantaged because they don't do anything to be more advantaged. In Estonia, Russians who have learned the official language have even better chances to get a job than Estonians because they speak Estonian and Russian both. But people who know only Russian are advantaged in their fault because they are lazy to learn.

If you want to get a decent job then you have to speak the native language, you just can't work properly without it. Most of the people I know who haven't tried (or suceeded) to learn English are old men who don't work and just come with their families.

We have also elders who can't speak Estonian but they are lived here about 40 years or more so they were younger. So if people don't want to learn then they do not and that's only their own fault.

As for adopting native customs, I don't really see it as essential unless your customs offend native people. For example, if somebody who lives in some remote rainforest tribe and wears only a loincloth decides to move to a western country, he should really start wearing clothes. But if you just wear different clothes I don't see an issue.

Muslim customs include honor murders, forced marriages, polygamy(4 wifes) and fathers can insist children even when they are mature. And I agree that their customs are OK until they aren't against native laws and do not offend native people while natives shouldn't not quit their traditions for them because nobody asked them to immigrate. For example I would never quit eating pig meat because Muslims do not like it. But I don't like when Russians yell loudly in buses while drinking beer and having drugs. Here it is more their custom even they are minority.

Yes, but not all gypsies are criminals, only ones who do criminal things. If a big caravan of gypsies showed up and started leaving litter, stealing and generally causing disruption, I wouldn't employ them, but if they weren't doing those things I would.

But they have shown up that. Perhaps it's better to examine him more and if he is not tied with his big family then he can be more trustful otherwise he still is like the others. They are nomadic people and do not have homeland so they have that bad habits to survive. But they have chances to do better but they do not use it. And if the gypsy has good CV and I've searched that it is not false then I would take him. In 3-4 months he has try-out time so when he doesn't fit into collective or doesn't make good job then it's over.

Since when are Europeans any more individualistic than gypsies? That just sounds like a made up excuse for not teating the Europeans as a group as well...

Not exactly because the more individual and developed people are the less they are depended on customs.

That argument leads to some kind of crazy loop anyway: you are saying that because Europeans follow their culture of individualism, they don't follow their culture as tightly as others. Which would therefore mean that they aren't individualistic as they don't follow their individualistic culture, a complete contradiction!

That's only my point of view! If you personally think that an old custom is a bull crap then your father cannot insist to follow that but in Muslim culture they can and the children will obey. The strangest thing is that they escape from their homeland and still do the same from what the escaped.

That just means that Mugabe is tin pot dictator who gives people jobs because of their race rather than their qualifications. Which sounds an awful lot like right-wingers in Europe...

When the humanity started then we had almost equal chances to be riches and developed. Like in civilization game. If you make right decisions you grow better. The Africans didn't make right decisions and now that's aftermath. Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro and Aleksandr Lukašenka are also dictators but their people do not starve because of their culture. And the races are naturally different, not only in skin color but for example Asians are more fanatic than Europeans. That's why communism in North Korea has famines but in cuba they have manjana and they still live.

In Britain lots of people think eastern Europeans can't be trusted with work as they think they don't do their jobs properly. I don't think this myself, of course, but lots of people have the same attitude to immigrants that you have, only they complain about Pakistanis and eastern Europeans rather than Russians.

Right and because they had to live in communism where they hadn't motivation to more. In soviet time everyone must had work. If they hadn't then the job was created for them. Usually 2-3 people did same job as now 1 does. Yes 17 years passed but some habits are still same and it takes time to forget that. And I believe that Eastern Europeans are not so problematic than Pakistan people.

This is all kind of off-topic anyway though...

So and So.

 

[Healz]

The next phase of that experiment should have been to send out CVs where the Muslim and Ethnic names are on better qualified and written CVs than the English names and see whether they get the same result. In reality, I don't really consider that in that case it really is racism when you have applicants with the same skill levels and everything, you go for the one that you think will fit in best. Unfortunately for the ethnic and Muslim but that is the way it goes. Too many people try to read racism into what may be rational thought processes of the manager involved...

 

[Mad Professor]

All nations are just as trustful as any other. No culture values deceit or laziness.

"Trust" iself is a cultural word. What one culture values as trustworthy may not be considered trustworthy in another. In the "west" people often value "truth" highly, and get fruistrated when they visit Africa and discover that their African friends do not value it so highly. This does not make their African friends less trustworthy though - their African friends will stick to them through thick and thin, happily lying to protect them and support them. The idea of "truth" is secondary to relationship in many such cultures.

Regarding cultures actually valuing deceit, I know of one, in Papua New Guinea, where (at least until outside influences began to change the culture as invariably happens when any culture meets another) what we would call treachery was highly prized as a mark of civilisation and sophistication. People who could pull off the most gob smacking backstabs were considered intelligent and desirable to be had as friends.

It's only one example in thousands of cultures around the world, but it is one!

 

[3 EMS]

The term Racism is very abused these days to the point where we have long ago gone past the point of the Boy who cried Wolf.

Racism is when you judge a person or group of persons based more or less solely on their racial heritage - it is NOT refusing food or any other produces because it may or may not come from a foreign country, it is NOT pointing out and investigating problems that may or may not exist due to immigration, it is NOT feeling threatened by and speaking out against the customs and beliefs of other religions - and it certainly isn't producing a game like Colonization emulating a certain era of human history (assuming it doesn't make use of unbalanced racial stereotypes).

Now, some of these NOT examples may very fall into other equally problematic definitions (nationalism, xenophobia, religious persecution etc.), but to claim they are cases of Racism is to admit ignorance about the true meaning of the term Racism.

Racism is a serious issue, please stop watering down the term by crying Wolf at all opportunities and/or by supporting those who do.

I wanted to write something very similar this morning. I started posting but just couldn't collect my thoughts. I was reading the posts by The Fisherman and Desert Fox and quickly realised that neither one of them understood the term Racism. You said it well, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Dvalin]

@Desert-Fox: Regardless of intentions to say that Asians are more 'fanatic' than Europeans is racist, ignorant to say, and scientifically bogus. Looking over the rest of your post(s) I'd say you have a pretty sad worldview.

 

[LethalFist]

No, I don't feel that any of the Civs games are racist. Whoever wrote the blog was more offensive than the game is.

 

[Hian the Frog]

Strange discuss....
In France, colonization is at that time a great problem. I mean "the real" colonization. As a former colonialist country, some frenchmen say and think: it was a bad thing, it was made under racist theories, bla bla... Others say: the natives were protected, educated. Peace was on their lands, bla bla...
In fact, it's all these points.
IMO: it's history. We can't say there is racism there. It's "only" the domination of a group of men on an other group of men at one time. Who were the masters in 200 BC ? In 450 AD ? and so on.... And today ?

Useless discuss....

 

[AmazonQueen]

I don't believe Colonisation was a racist game. It was also a damn good game. I do find people who make generalisations about groups of people based solely on their culture, religion or sex offensive and ignorant though.

 

[akadyer]

This is a good example of the Internet at it's best, Here we have a nobody blogger express there opinion, that colonization is racists.

I say good work on the OP not linking directly to the Original article don't give them any more attention and ad money for writing crap.

(I should know I have a blog too, but mine is full of nothing and is ad free
http://www.icomefromthenet.net/blog/)