Moderator Action: Note: This was split off from the Black Lives Matter thread, which was veering off topic for too long.
The mental gymnastics some people here go through in order to deny there we have any problem with Islam is really flabbergasting. On the last page we've seen all the usual excuses, which of course have all been refuted time and time again. But the SJWs don't get tired of using them.
We've had:
- Question the validity of the the sources. On the site I gave, every single number given is linked to the original poll. These are for the most part big studies from Pew and other reputable research centers. But the well-known attitude of the justice fighters is to ignore or belittle facts which don't fit into their agenda.
- Bring up the strawman "all Muslims". As if the argument was that "all Muslims" were behaving in dispicable ways. That nobody has ever said, ever. I wonder when this one is going away...
- Bring up Christianity (and Judaism). This is the most ridiculous defense I have ever come across and yet it is a frequent guest and is argued with vigour. The first thing to note is that even if Christians were behaving exactly as bad or worse than Muslims it wouldn't effect the arguments against Islam in the slightest. Two wrongs don't make a right.
But of course the comparison is entirely absurd anyway. I'll take this post as an example:
Bombing the Olympics. Sounds extreme doesn't it? That was when? 1996? One person died? Moving on...
Harrassing and murdering Muslims... And here it gets downright silly. Christians are harrassed, persecuted and murdered throughout the Muslim world, have in most cases been forced to leave their country or live in constant fear as a Dhimmi. Not to speak of the Jews. The Koran specifically tells Muslims how to treat other religions. It's not very pleasant. And we see them for the most part abiding by their book. If you really believe what you wrote, do a google search for "Persecution of Christians in the Muslim world". Then show me anything that is even remotely on the same scale in the other direction.
Go through the lists of terror attacks on Wikipedia. Go back through the list and count the numbers of deaths caused by Muslim terror until you come to an instance of Christian terror. You might have to go back a while though. And better use a calculator to add up those 6-digit numbers.
- Downplay or distort the role of specfic doctrines. We criticize the doctrines of Islam because hundreds of millions of Muslims behave in accordance to the Koran and the Hadiths. If they didn't, if they were living peacefully in secular societies where sharia and jihad had no place, there wouldn't be much need to talk about their holy book. In comparison, Christians and Jews tend not to live by their books at all really, even the literalists. And where they do, they get called out for it and are publicly shamed (or jailed).
But the tenets of Islam are not just abided by, they constitute a fascist ideology of violence and death. It is not a coincedence that many Islamic thinkers whose thoughts are highly influential until today, like Maududi, Qutb or Chomeini, perceived German and Italian fascism to be grandiose ideas, or that "Mein Kampf" is a best-seller in most Islamic countries. Why Erdogan, "moderate" Turkey's prime minister, says "Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers." The war against everything "unislamic" is a central part of the religion. It is no coincedence that terrorism is almost entirely done by Muslims.
- There's nothing we can do anyway. The facts don't change anything.
However, the premise is flawed. First, it should go without saying that the analysis of a problem and finding a solution to it depends entirely on the diagnosis. If we blame the wrong things, our solutions will not be effective. If we blame the West for problems inherent to Islam, we will never solve these problems. I am certain that a good diagnosis will eventually result in the best solution. If we recognize and talk openly about Islam having a political element to it which is detrimental to society and which must be eliminated, we can apply conversational pressure to those who speak of a benign "religion of peace". We can start supporting those Muslims who have acknowledged the problem. There is evidence that there are large numbers of people in the Muslim world who disagree with the mainstream of Islamic orthodoxy, yet remain silent for fear of their lives and their families. We hear about fatwas for and killings of blasphemers rather often. About the recent blogger from Pakistan who was hacked to death. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
But these people won't make it alone. This is a civilizational problem of global scale and can only be solved in a concerted effort by us all. It is all the more unfortunate that here, in the West, where freedom of speech exists and where it would be comparably safe to form opposition to the current guise of Islam, people are burying their head in the sand and denying that there is a problem in the first place. Potential Muslim reformers in Europe and America as well as their Western supporters are being marginalized and silenced; not only by other Muslims but oftentimes by the left. This is as backwards as it is outrageous, and those doing it are accomplices of those in favour of cruelty and oppression. If we can't help reform Islam from here, where we have civil rights and mustn't live in constant fear, how should we expect the people to do it who live in theocracies under sharia law?
The mental gymnastics some people here go through in order to deny there we have any problem with Islam is really flabbergasting. On the last page we've seen all the usual excuses, which of course have all been refuted time and time again. But the SJWs don't get tired of using them.
We've had:
- Question the validity of the the sources. On the site I gave, every single number given is linked to the original poll. These are for the most part big studies from Pew and other reputable research centers. But the well-known attitude of the justice fighters is to ignore or belittle facts which don't fit into their agenda.
- Bring up the strawman "all Muslims". As if the argument was that "all Muslims" were behaving in dispicable ways. That nobody has ever said, ever. I wonder when this one is going away...
- Bring up Christianity (and Judaism). This is the most ridiculous defense I have ever come across and yet it is a frequent guest and is argued with vigour. The first thing to note is that even if Christians were behaving exactly as bad or worse than Muslims it wouldn't effect the arguments against Islam in the slightest. Two wrongs don't make a right.
But of course the comparison is entirely absurd anyway. I'll take this post as an example:
Yeah, the abortion bombing. This every day problem, causing hundreds of doctors and thousands of women to hide and live in fear... Wait, in the history of the US there have been eight deaths related to anti-abortion violence, and only one since 2000? Every month there are hundreds if not thousands of deaths due to Islamic terror. I guess that makes both equal then.Formaldehyde said:
Bombing the Olympics. Sounds extreme doesn't it? That was when? 1996? One person died? Moving on...
Harrassing and murdering Muslims... And here it gets downright silly. Christians are harrassed, persecuted and murdered throughout the Muslim world, have in most cases been forced to leave their country or live in constant fear as a Dhimmi. Not to speak of the Jews. The Koran specifically tells Muslims how to treat other religions. It's not very pleasant. And we see them for the most part abiding by their book. If you really believe what you wrote, do a google search for "Persecution of Christians in the Muslim world". Then show me anything that is even remotely on the same scale in the other direction.
Go through the lists of terror attacks on Wikipedia. Go back through the list and count the numbers of deaths caused by Muslim terror until you come to an instance of Christian terror. You might have to go back a while though. And better use a calculator to add up those 6-digit numbers.
- Downplay or distort the role of specfic doctrines. We criticize the doctrines of Islam because hundreds of millions of Muslims behave in accordance to the Koran and the Hadiths. If they didn't, if they were living peacefully in secular societies where sharia and jihad had no place, there wouldn't be much need to talk about their holy book. In comparison, Christians and Jews tend not to live by their books at all really, even the literalists. And where they do, they get called out for it and are publicly shamed (or jailed).
But the tenets of Islam are not just abided by, they constitute a fascist ideology of violence and death. It is not a coincedence that many Islamic thinkers whose thoughts are highly influential until today, like Maududi, Qutb or Chomeini, perceived German and Italian fascism to be grandiose ideas, or that "Mein Kampf" is a best-seller in most Islamic countries. Why Erdogan, "moderate" Turkey's prime minister, says "Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers." The war against everything "unislamic" is a central part of the religion. It is no coincedence that terrorism is almost entirely done by Muslims.
It is always shocking to see someone argue so passionately who doesn't have the slightest clue of what he is talking about. Read the Koran. Hell, do any kind of basic research on the matter. This is not hard. Start here if you like. Start anywhere. It shouldn't take you long to get the gist of the Koran. The information is all there. Till then, do yourself a favour and stop making yourself look foolish by posting things that are opposite to reality.Formaldehyde said:
- There's nothing we can do anyway. The facts don't change anything.
This is actually a somewhat interesting point which we stumble over occasionally. The idea is that we can only change ourselves but not others. If we are to blame for something, we just have to alter or correct our behaviour, but if it isn't our fault there is nothing we can do. I believe that this fear of becoming powerless by blaming external sources is a strong driver for SJWs blaming ourselves.Illram said:
However, the premise is flawed. First, it should go without saying that the analysis of a problem and finding a solution to it depends entirely on the diagnosis. If we blame the wrong things, our solutions will not be effective. If we blame the West for problems inherent to Islam, we will never solve these problems. I am certain that a good diagnosis will eventually result in the best solution. If we recognize and talk openly about Islam having a political element to it which is detrimental to society and which must be eliminated, we can apply conversational pressure to those who speak of a benign "religion of peace". We can start supporting those Muslims who have acknowledged the problem. There is evidence that there are large numbers of people in the Muslim world who disagree with the mainstream of Islamic orthodoxy, yet remain silent for fear of their lives and their families. We hear about fatwas for and killings of blasphemers rather often. About the recent blogger from Pakistan who was hacked to death. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
But these people won't make it alone. This is a civilizational problem of global scale and can only be solved in a concerted effort by us all. It is all the more unfortunate that here, in the West, where freedom of speech exists and where it would be comparably safe to form opposition to the current guise of Islam, people are burying their head in the sand and denying that there is a problem in the first place. Potential Muslim reformers in Europe and America as well as their Western supporters are being marginalized and silenced; not only by other Muslims but oftentimes by the left. This is as backwards as it is outrageous, and those doing it are accomplices of those in favour of cruelty and oppression. If we can't help reform Islam from here, where we have civil rights and mustn't live in constant fear, how should we expect the people to do it who live in theocracies under sharia law?
