Is Islam The Problem?

There is a reason no one ever hears about problems with the Muslim community in Singapore, unlike say Somalia. Where people have the opportunity to succeed, people channel faith for more constructive purposes - in the end it comes down to questions of poverty and strife. The real problem is not Islam - its a lack of economic development.

Unfortunately, this analysis doesn't hold. If it did, the solution would be easy, just spread the money around. While poverty certainly plays a role in some cases of radicalization, the evidence suggests that it is a comparably small factor. Sure, Islam causes bigger problems in Somalia than it does in Singapore. But some of the most fundamentalist countries are actually quite rich, like Saudi Arabia or Iran. Most suicide bombers are fairly well-off, both in the West as in the Muslim world, and often have the benefit of education and good jobs. I have not seen any studies that show correlations between education and income on the one hand and degree of religious belief on the other.
On the other hand, there are very poor countries in Middle America for example that don't have large portions of their population exhibiting detrimental behaviour to themselves and to others.

Moreover, even if we granted that it was poverty that was driving people into a literal following of Islam, into mistreating their women, killing blasphemers and suicide bombing, that still wouldn't mean that we shouldn't criticize Islam as an ideology.
 
You can criticize it all you want on the basis of facts, instead of sheer Islamophobic nonsense which has become so popular in the US subsequent to 9/11. But keep in mind that both Christianity and Judaism can usually be criticized for the very same reasons.

All the Abrahamic religions are based on the same vengeful god who doesn't think twice about committing atrocities and even genocide. There are practitioners of all 3 religions who still think every single word is the gospel. Many American soldiers are convinced they are on a holy mission from their god to kill Muslims.
 
You are falling into the same trap as the jihadists: picking and choosing verses that justifies your preconceived notions (or notion, 'cause what you and them believe is the same, that Islam sanctions wanton indiscriminate violence) and ignoring the rest.
Again with the inane 'don't read the text the way the terrorists do' rubbish. So long as the texts can be read that way people will do so. That is the problem. c.f. The Westboro Baptist Church.

If you believe, as many people do, that these are genuinely 'religions of peace' then you have to believe that the terrorists are irrational or evil. They aren't and this failure to correctly attribute motive to action continually undermines attempts to deal with them. The UK government's programme to prevent the spread of 'extremism' is based entirely upon the idea that all you have to do is tell people that the jihadists are bonkers. It has been a catastrophic failure because it utterly fails to address the root causes of sympathies with jihadists.
 
If you believe, as many people do, that these are genuinely 'religions of peace'

There aren't religions of peace or religions of war.

I don't do sweeping categorical moral judgements of religion or the religious.

then you have to believe that the terrorists are irrational or evil.

Why can't they be? Are terrorists some sort of super/subhuman immune to irrationality or evil that afflicts the rest of us?

What's sillier, thinking the terrorists are terrorists because they are Muslim, or that their Muslim-ness is only one of a host of factors that in their particular combination and circumstances specific to time, place, and person, gave rise to terrorism.
 
Who has said that terrorists are terrorists because they are Muslim?

"If you believe, as many people do, that these are genuinely 'religions of peace' then you have to believe that the terrorists are irrational or evil"

You gave me this choice. I put my money on irrationality/evil/other. You don't.

Maybe if you don't believe that terrorists act because of their religion you should start discussing these things with more tact and nuance.
 
I didn't give you any choice, nor did I make one.

I pointed out that to characterise a religion as being one 'of peace' was a choice 'many people' appear to make. My point being that this is stupid because it then requires whoever believes it to be true to characterise any terrorist who uses that religion to justify their actions as being evil or mad.

Is that clearer?
 
Neither are Quakers invariably pacifist.

One of our best generals was a Quaker.

I am implying that you don't take large parts of the Koran literally. Which is a good thing! And in a sense, yes, your faith is weaker than that of a suicide bomber who would go so far as to kill himself because he is convinced of the truthfulness of the doctrines of martyrdom and paradise. Which is also a good thing.

Could you be a bit more condescending? Please?

He hasn't suicide bombed himself yet, so he is probably not a Muslim. :mischief:

You've got it backwards: National Socialism was not an inspiration for the Holocaust and WWII, it was a sham ideology created to carry out such plans. Being a Nationalist and a Socialist doesn't make one an anti-semitic mass murderer. There are plenty of people who support both Nationalism and Socialism who don't hurt a fly. And there were tons of self-styled National Socialist parties that were Civic Nationalist Social Democrats (including in Czechoslovakia and China). It ultimately doesn't boil down to the ideology, rather, it boils down to the individuals responsible. If there was no Nazi party, or a Nazi pseudo-ideology, Adolf Hitler would have to campaign on a platform of genocide and sending his own country to its ruin. I doubt that would have been considered appealing.

No true Scotsmen, right? :mischief:

Although I fully agree with you here. People project their own motivations, goals, and sometimes cruel intentions onto an ideology. They warp it for their own purposes so they have an excuse.

Ironic, isn't it?

It's almost beyond comprehension.

Is Islam "The Problem"?


Right, my good man. :lol:
 
...you have to believe that the terrorists are irrational or evil.
Well, duh.

The 9/11 terrorists were nothing but common criminals. They should have been arrested and tried in a court of law, just like any other criminals. Invading Iraq under a pretense of lies just fomented more terrorism where there was little or none before. This is a repeating theme with the American government.

George Bush and Tony Blair directly caused far more terrorism than they ever resolved through their incessant lies and totally inept handling of this matter. You might be able to argue that Tony Blair was just another victim of Bush's lies, but he should have at least demanded proof before becoming his willing sycophant.
 
I dunno about common criminals. 3000 plus deaths is pretty uncommon. Other than that I agree.
 
Could you be a bit more condescending? Please?

Since that was directed at me: He asked me a question, so I gave him an answer. An answer that actually commended his version of belief. What is your problem?

What is more interesting, is that of everything that I posted on the topic, about the problems with Islam, possible ways to reform the religion, the Mekka and Medina parts of the Koran, challenging Islamic orthodoxy etc, you chose to pounce on a quote which you apparently found inappropriate and make a snarky remark. This says more about you and your unwillingness to deal with the topic than it does about me.

TheMeInTeam said:
That includes quite a few religions.
Such as?
 
Since that was directed at me: He asked me a question, so I gave him an answer. An answer that actually commended his version of belief. What is your problem?

What is more interesting, is that of everything that I posted on the topic, about the problems with Islam, possible ways to reform the religion, the Mekka and Medina parts of the Koran, challenging Islamic orthodoxy etc, you chose to pounce on a quote which you apparently found inappropriate and make a snarky remark. This says more about you and your unwillingness to deal with the topic than it does about me.

You might as well have wrote "Nah, you are one of the good ones. :pat:" Basically reads the same.

And I learned from the other thread. I highly doubt you are doing any real work reforming any religion, or interested in any broader conversation on geopolitical, social, or economic issues with regards to Muslim countries.
 

Mosaic law has the death penalty for even minor deviances from its rules and God egged on his chosen people to commit genocide against non-believing populations.

Falling off the Christian bandwagon (or failing to get on) results in eternal damnation complete with fire and brimstone.
 
And I learned from the other thread. I highly doubt you are doing any real work reforming any religion, or interested in any broader conversation on geopolitical, social, or economic issues with regards to Muslim countries.

Well thank you for accusing me of lying. No matter, whatever you believe, what I am or am not doing in my spare time is irrelevant to this conversation. The arguments I have made stand and fall on their own merit. By all means, point out their flaws. And how can you think I have no interest in a conversation about the situation in the Muslim world when I am posting in a forum on precisely the topic?!


JollyRoger said:
Mosaic law has the death penalty for even minor deviances from its rules and God egged on his chosen people to commit genocide against non-believing populations.

Falling off the Christian bandwagon (or failing to get on) results in eternal damnation complete with fire and brimstone.
Christianity doesn't advocate violence against apostates, which was the claim.
 
Well thank you for accusing me of lying. No matter, whatever you believe, what I am or am not doing in my spare time is irrelevant to this conversation. The arguments I have made stand and fall on their own merit. By all means, point out their flaws. And how can you think I have no interest in a conversation about the situation in the Muslim world when I am posting in a forum on precisely the topic?!

I did in the other thread, you weren't interested.
 
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