Israeli Forests

[luiz]

So Luiz, will you quit attacking Corbyn if I produce evidence that he also criticized Turkey and supported action to pressure it to acknowledge past and current abuses against portions of its populations?

Nope, my point about Turkey is to demonstrate the hypocrisy and ulterior motives of the people who support boycotting Israel (but not Turkey, or many other countries with far worse human rights abuses than Israel). BTW, Turkey continues to oppress minorities, does not have a "right of return" for the millions of people it expelled, etc. So this is a present issue, not just about recognizing past wrongs.

But Corbyn's case is different and more clear cut. He belonged to anti-semitic groups. He defended anti-semitic works of "art". He associates and supports people who are proud and notorious anti-semites. None of these are controversial points, they are acknowledged by the man himself. He just keeps referring to his poor judgment or whatever (the "I'm an imbecile" defense). So he is like the preacher always found inside a brothel who claims he walked in there by accident. All 20 times.

 

[Mouthwash]

A blue whale and a fruit bat are both mammals, but you wouldn't readily confuse them.

Both of them are attempts by arrogant Westerners without skin in the game to force the Middle East to conform to their ideals. Of course, the main difference is that the Israel boycott will never take off the ground.

There were states policing" the UN approved sanctions on Iraq. That would be after the US government (and others) declares and enforces embargoes on Israel, prosecuting anyone who does unapproved business there. You can bet there was violence when necessary to enforce it.

Which is relevant to my point because...

Why stop there, we all know how it goes. Why not claim that Hitler only opposed jewish supremacism, therefore Corbin is Hitler? And anyone who disapproves of Israeli state policy is Hitler.

Can you try something new? That one of claiming all critics or Israeli state policies are nazis is old and used up.

I'm not sure how you got 'Corbyn must be a Nazi' from 'not explicitly saying bigoted things doesn't mean you aren't bigoted.' Let's also gloss over how (as usual) it's the anti-Israeli claiming that people like him are always called antisemitic.

 

[r16]

It's a funny argument by Israel-haters that Israel should be held to an (impossible) higher standard because they claim to be so moral and democratic. Well, I don't see any claim they make that Turkey doesn't. So why boycott Israel and not Turkey? I can think of one reason.

why shouldn't they be ? Everybody knows Jews have suffered so much and would again suffer . Everybody has accepted despite all the stuff that happened ever since Israel is a fact on the ground or whatever . So , why can't be Israel actually be what it preaches ? Instead of "driving" all the stuff in the Middle East . New Turkey "proved" itself with the PM calling the Israeli President a murderer . Or the Mavi Marmara incident . In which so many people got off the ship ; and yet it was to dock in Egypt , even before it sailed from Istanbul . Was still boarded , only Turkish nationals were killed , the Party media had a field day with Israeli Naval special units attacked and killed 5 or 6 soldiers in Hatay and so on and on . And yet , the trade tripled in the aftermath . There is no chance in hell that the PM's presidency can be annulled because the idea that he has no diploma from a 4 year university as required by the law . And whenever that talk starts , some Turkish born journalist calls from Israel to tell that he was a classmate of the PM , he has the paper , that diploma from the 4 year old school so the PM must have one , too . That , people , would be a huge thing if it was anyone else , like an Opposition politician . Why even the foreign owned media does not mention that . The West and Israel itself do NOT boycott New Turkey ...

So Luiz, will you quit attacking Corbyn if I produce evidence that he also criticized Turkey and supported action to pressure it to acknowledge past and current abuses against portions of its populations?

by the way that Corbyn guy happens to be the only guy that supported the defendants in one of those many cases where the Goverment accuses Journalists as being spies , but can't remember which one . Wore a t-shirt with the picture of some guy
.

Nope, my point about Turkey is to demonstrate the hypocrisy and ulterior motives of the people who support boycotting Israel

oh , please , it would be some change if anything to the contrary happened . New Turkey is the Great White Hope of West's war against Iran , which is typically proving to be a tough nut . So that the resulting war can assist the expansion of some country .

 

[r16]

What is this "New" Turkey you constantly refer to? A Turkey of Erdogan as opposed to the Turkey of Ali Rıza oğlu Mustafa? Or opposed to Young Turks? Or opposed to Ottoman Empire? I mean say something definitive so that people can understand one of the many hidden undertones you use in your posting...

sorry , but why ? New Turkey is New Turkey as members of New Turkey define themselves . The greatest thing in the world , after the 80 or 90 years of evil Kemalists , the Republic being a paranthesis , an interlude . The difference lays in the fact Ali Rıza oğlu Mustafa established a country that the New could win elections and yet he would be exactly nothing in New Turkey , let alone winning elections . And mind you , the New Turkey actually "teaches" that Ali Rıza was not his father , with the mother being "bad" and even working in some "bad" place .

 

[Arwon]

I would suggest the only worthwhile question regarding BDS is whether it's a sound strategy for helping the Israeli left (or whoever is there who wants to dismantle the settlements and end the occupation) to get Netenyahu and his band of nutters out of power. I suspect for large parts of the Israeli left and Israeli peace movement it probably isn't seen as particularly useful.

 

[Oerdin]

I am cool with this. The land was legally abandoned, just like Arabs all declared the property of the million or so Jews they kicked out was legally abandoned, so planting a forest and making parkland is excellent use of legally owned public property.

 

[Oerdin]

Why would Israel bother to cover up war crimes? Don't forests also take a long time to grow? Seems like a silly plan

It is a conspiracy for the gullible and simple minded. No one is or has covered up anything and the events of have been extremely well covered in Israel over the last 60-70 years. It simply comes down to what is the best use of public land and in some cases it was decided that beautiful parks make a nice amenity for surrounding communities.

That so many otherwise intelligent people fall so easily into conspiracy theory nonsense astounds me. I am not sure if they are simply ignorant on this issue and so easy prey for Muslim propagandists or if they, like so much of the European left, really are steeped in antisemitism. One thing is clear though and that is they have a massive double standard towards Israel, as they are not talking about Jewish assets seized by Arab countries, and double standards towards Israel is directly out of the definition of antisemitism.

 

[uppi]

The town of al-Faluja had 5,240 inhabitants. There were shops, cafes, a clinic, a school for boys and a school for girls, with a plot of land for agricultural training. Merchants from the region came to the town’s twice-weekly market to sell their goods. The town was captured in May, 1948. Now it is Plugot Forest.

In early January 2013, the international campaign to Stop the JNF organized its third annual study tour. Activists from the UK, US, and Italy came to Israel/Palestine to learn about the work of the JNF and meet the people organizing to return to or stay on their land. They saw a range or JNF projects from Al-Arakib, an unrecognized Bedouin village facing expulsion to make way for a new JNF forest to Silwan East Jerusalem where a JNF subsidiary helps takeover Palestinian homes and transfer them to illegal Jewish settlers to American Independence Park where the JNF simultaneously covers up the ruins of Palestinian villages that were ethnically cleansed in 1948 and also proudly displays maps of how Zionist militias attacked these villages in October 1948.

Trying to incite hatred by referring to events 70 years ago has never led to anything good. Campaigns like these do their share to prolong the conflict and suffering.

 

[Tigranes]

Trying to incite hatred by referring to events 70 years ago has never led to anything good. Campaigns like these do their share to prolong the conflict and suffering.

Are you in your right mind? What hatred? Facts have no emotions in them, they are just facts. No justice -- no peace, din't you get it by now? Time does not matter, when past made present unbearable -- and doing nothing means that future is going to be even worse. You don't have to hate to condemn when even the traces of your existence are being obliterated. For example even after 103 years Turkey does not acknowledge the fact of Armenian genocide. Should I just forget about it because of number? What incites hatred : calling "bad" bad, or calling bad "good"? Because that's what is happening with those forests. What, villages, what refuges, what civilians? There is a forest growing there, paid by tax deductible dollars of someone who lives in California, just like you. All is good. Or is it?

 

[uppi]

Are you in your right mind? What hatred? Facts have no emotions in them, they are just facts. No justice -- no peace, din't you get it by now? Time does not matter, when past made present unbearable -- and doing nothing means that future is going to be even worse. You don't have to hate to condemn when even the traces of your existence are being obliterated. For example even after 103 years Turkey does not acknowledge the fact of Armenian genocide. Should I just forget about it because of number? What incites hatred : calling "bad" bad, or calling bad "good"? Because that's what is happening with those forests. What, villages, what refuges, what civilians? There is a forest growing there, paid by tax deductible dollars of someone who lives in California, just like you. All is good. Or is it?

I'd argue that selective presentation of fact can very well be intended to evoke emotions, but I don't have to, because this goes way beyond facts. The fact is that trees are planted where there were Palestinian villages. That the intent of this is to cover war crimes is not a fact at all -- it is a judgement. A judgement that may or may not be true, but short of the tree planters stating that this is exactly their intent this is no fact.

No justice -- no peace is the slogan you shout when you want perpetual war and suffering. In a conflict like this there have been so many injustices that it is impossible to rectify them all and trying to do that would bring about new injustices which according to your slogan should lead to renewed violence. How do you break this cycle short of one side annihilating the other? Peace is only possible if there is forgiveness for past transgressions.

My grandmother was ethnically cleansed and no one ever apologized for that. I live a much more peaceful life, because no one listened to those that peace should never happen until justice has been done.

 

[Tahuti]

I would suggest the only worthwhile question regarding BDS is whether it's a sound strategy for helping the Israeli left (or whoever is there who wants to dismantle the settlements and end the occupation) to get Netenyahu and his band of nutters out of power. I suspect for large parts of the Israeli left and Israeli peace movement it probably isn't seen as particularly useful.

It isn't. In fact, BDS emboldens the Israeli right and denies the raison d'etre of the Israeli left. I do see the Israeli and Palestinian left collaborating through inter-party channels rather than interstate ones.

 

[inthesomeday]

No justice -- no peace is the slogan you shout when you want perpetual war and suffering.

No, it’s the slogan you shout when you want justice.

 

[Tigranes]

I'd argue that selective presentation of fact can very well be intended to evoke emotions, but I don't have to, because this goes way beyond facts. The fact is that trees are planted where there were Palestinian villages. That the intent of this is to cover war crimes is not a fact at all -- it is a judgement. A judgement that may or may not be true, but short of the tree planters stating that this is exactly their intent this is no fact.
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What an amazing logic! But it is wrong. You don't have to wait for perps to confess on their intent. You look at the evidence.

Here are the 46 KKL forests and parks located on 89 Palestinian villages destroyed by Israel – 87 during the 1948 and two in the 1967 war.


Khirbat Marut - Marus
Maghar Hills - al-Maghar
al-Qastal National Park - al-Qastal
Zmorot Pond Nature Reserve - Bayt Daras
Aminadav Forest - al-Walaja
Ramot Isahar Scenic Road - al-Murasas
Naftali Mountains - al-Nabi Yusha, Qadas, Harrawi, Hunin
Kabul Grove - al-Damun
Ein Dor Grove - Indur
Tamra Grove - al-Ruways
Asseret Grove - Bahorsehocky
Be'er Nahash - Dayr Nakhkhas
Qula Forest - Qula
Tsipori Grove - Safuriyya
Hodaya recreation area - Julis
Biriyya Forest - Fir'im, Ayn al-Zaytun, Ammuqa, Qabba'a, Mughr al-Khayt
Beit Ha'emek Forest - Kuwaykat
Yehiam Forest - al-Ghabsiyya
Ben Shemen Forest - Jimzu, Dayr Abu Salama, Khirbat Zakariyya, Haditha, Khirbat al-Duhayriyya
Bar'am Forest - Fara
Hagilboa Forest - Nuris, al-Mazar
Hakdoshim Forest - Aqqur, Dayr 'Amr, Bayt Umm al-Mays, Khirbat al-'Umur, Kasla
Hacarmel Forest - Ayn Ghazal, al-Sawamir, Jaba
Haruvit Forest - Idniba
Kfira Forest - Bayt Thul, Nitaf
Kfar Hahoresh Forest - Ma'alul
Lavi Forest - Lubya
Megido Forest - al-Lajjun
Sataf Forest - Sataf, Khirbat al-Lawz
Plugot Forest - al-Faluja, Karatiyya
Tsor'a (Hanasi) Forest - Sar'a
Kiryat Ata Forest - Hawsha
Rosh Tsipor Forest (Hayarkon Park) - Jarisha
Segev Forest - Mi'ar
Hacarmel Forests - Umm al-Zinat, Khirbat al-Damun
Begin Park - al-Qabu, Ras Abu 'Ammar
Britania Park - Ajjur, Dayr al-Dubban, Kudna
Hayarden Park - al-Butayha
Lehi Park - al-Qubab
The United States Independence Park - Allar, Dayr al-Hawa, Khirbat al-Tannur, Jarash, Sufla, Bayt 'Itab, Dayr Aban
Rabin Park - Bayt Mahsir, Islin, Saris, Bayt Jiz, Bayt Susin
Ramat Menashe Park - Abu Zurayq, Abu Shusha, al-Butaymat, al-Kafrayn, al-Rihaniyya, Daliyat al-Rawha, Khubbayza
Tel Izre'el - Zir'in
Tel Tsuba - Suba
Adolam-France Park - Khirbat Umm Burj
Ayalon-Canada Park - Yalu, Imwas, Bayt Nuba, Dayr Ayyub.

The evidence is there and it is damning and no verbal acrobatics in the world can change it.

 

[Tigranes]

My grandmother was ethnically cleansed and no one ever apologized for that. I live a much more peaceful life, because no one listened to those that peace should never happen until justice has been done.

That's very sad, actually, but at least you acknowledge a fact of ethnic cleansing without cleansers stating it was their intent to cleanse. That is the first step towards justice -- be aware of the past and call things by their names. Internal peace while leaving miles away in America is of course an important thing, but it does not mean that what happened to her was right. The more people realize that -- better chances for things to be rectified.

 

[uppi]

No, it’s the slogan you shout when you want justice.

As the slogan implies, it is the same thing.

That's very sad, actually, but at least you acknowledge a fact of ethnic cleansing without cleansers stating it was their intent to cleanse. That is the first step towards justice -- be aware of the past and call things by their names. Internal peace while leaving miles away in America is of course an important thing, but it does not mean that what happened to her was right. The more people realize that -- better chances for things to be rectified.

These things will never be rectified. And that is a good thing, because any attempt at justice at this point would create suffering for innocents and just result in cries for more justice. This is not just about internal peace. I value the absence of war way too much to endanger it by insisting on claims decades older than me.

 

[warpus]

But violence is still going on, people are still dying, land is still taken piece by piece. I agree that the sins of the past must at some point be forgiven, but in a lot of cases that is a rather big ask. I have no idea if the locals would agree with me or not, but to me it makes a lot more sense to first focus on the sins on the present

 

[inthesomeday]

As the slogan implies, it is the same thing.

Justice = eternal war? That’s a new take.

 

[r16]

... people can understand one of the many hidden undertones ...

same quote again , but can't be helped .


well , the latest seems to be ...


this:

Spoiler :

a palpable irritation , if one can call it , that ı haven't threatened US with war in the last couple of days . You know , this returned with the 5% loss the Turkish Lira suffered in regards to other currencies like the Dollar . Everybody loves me with global reach , now that they are better me in all departments , so better ı am , more magnificient they are . A steady diet of 10 years and people can actually feel like believing that , yours idiotly conspiring with America , now that ı have the ear of D.C.

once again , wrong , utterly wrong . America will never allow New Turkey collapse , as ı been like ranting for like , ı don't know , years . Whenever global markets force a correction in stuff in relation to the fake economy , there is a day of crisis with no action and no bulletins from the Goverment . Day Two involves predictions that this is the big one , the one that will melt the economy , with currencies still climbing and Party media starting on it that evil Berlin and evil Washington and evil Zionists started the Gezi Events / Taksim Riots . See , Washington cleared the way for A-K-P with a disasterous economic meltdown and all economy books say New Turkey should have one had a big , shattering , devastating crisis ever since 2012 . But then the ruthless enemies of New Turkey , the hope for the oppressed peoples of the world , the greatest thing ever to grace the world , have failed to see that 600 billion US dollars have been flooded into New Turkey's economy over that 15 years past . So , Day Three will see the PM talking that the enemies will never succeed in forcing New Turkey to its knees . You know , he has some real advisors who actually know how the markets work these days . Right on , the "temperature" of the economy drops . Not because the adjustments were made by the "invisible hand" of the markets already . In the last 10 "big ones" the PM apparently failed only once or twice with currency still rising after he talked the talk , but this is as steady as rule of thumbs go , always holding true at the end . Day Four , like meaning today , will probably see the same people accusing yours idiotly of treason in broad smiles , because ı failed once again . You wouldn't know how many wars , fights and battles ı have lost , even if ı wasn't in any of them ...


why ? Because all the people will gloriously applaud the glorious advance of the country . Thrace would produce 20% of the agricultural output of the country with 3% of the land and Qatar's latest plans for some hydrocarbon facility might ruin a massive part of that and who cares ? My older brother had some guests to dinner and my mother was also there . Referencing small talk therein , she tells of agricultural experts identifiying a particular strain of wheat that might suit the province of Artvin rather well , but Goverment does nothing , no response , no nothing . Because New Turkey has 3 or 4 or 5 companies . One of them will mine copper , like raping the whole province and no one cares , because if no single person is left in the province that readily suits New Turkey , because all New Turkey does is pouring concrete here and there and all those companies must sell the houses that they built in big cities . Depopulation of the rural areas of course suits the West , decreasing future support for the final war of the Turk , fighting an hopeless guerilla war to defeat the brutal , grimy and ruthless extermination of the said . As much as the "Türkiye'nin dinsizleştirilmesi" , the increasing percentage of Deism in the country and the Party has decreed no more talk of that , because that's a PR point only for those exalted people of America . Of course nobody will ever believe that here . The 10% of the students will be allowed to take exams that might place them in some good schools , so the Goverment announces a list of nearly 1400 schools that it deems good . Almost a quarter of them are Imam Hatips , practically all of them ranking at the very bottom of Ministry of Education's own lists of success . Naturally the Minister says for success in life one does not really always need Education . Typically mumbling , now that there would be idiots to compare it to some not very famous Minister of Education of the late Ottomans . He would do swell , only if there were no schools to run . It's no accident that New Turkey's university deans appear on TV and say the New Turkey will much prefer Ignorance over Education .


so , the lack of rant ? Well , only meant for people who insist following r16 . Like locally . Stuff ı write has to be read by moderators , right ? Who are not paid or anything . Unlike some real life people , not in CFC as well . ı am very creative in inserting rants in anywhere but it becomes like insulting if there is no venue to talk on and on . There were no suitable threads and nothing ı might have said would stop that 5% , because it was required to keep the fake New Turkey economy goin' . The real fun will begin when the enemies of New Turkey will want that 600 billions back , because ı won't be paying .


you know , it just turned out Germans are a major stakeholder of the 3rd airport of Istanbul . In jealousy of which they had made the seperatists start the bloodshed in 2015 ... Wait until the very end of the world , to see West's crush with New Turkey end . Only then the Ponzi State will crash .

as a sidenote , for my fortcoming birthday people asked whether ı would like Nuclear Anhilation . Thank you guys , but clearing me for Orbital Bombardment will suffice . Let's get over with that ; the exploration vessels are still in storage and rust was discovered in one just days ago . Aren't we supposed to go where no man has ever gone before boldly fatly ?

 

[Yeekim]

For example even after 103 years Turkey does not acknowledge the fact of Armenian genocide. Should I just forget about it because of number?

Of course not, but neither would planting forests on erstwhile Armenian villages somehow make it worse.
It's been 103 years, as you said. The genocide has been extensively documented and is accepted as a fact anywhere but Turkey.
"Covering traces" by planting forests would not change that. It would create a forest.

 

[Tahuti]

Of course not, but neither would planting forests on erstwhile Armenian villages somehow make it worse.
It's been 103 years, as you said. The genocide has been extensively documented and is accepted as a fact anywhere but Turkey.
"Covering traces" by planting forests would not change that. It would create a forest.

I can understand the Armenian perspective very well: It must be really frustrating that your biggest neighbouring country denies its own history to the extent that it is insulting to those who have fallen victim to it, despite that in the early days of Ottoman Empire, they participated as citizens of the empire and made a rather big contribution to it.

Besides, Turkey is still an active political threat to Armenia due to Turkey's alliance with Azerbaijan. Armenia would be a lot more forgiving to Turkish historical revisionism if it weren't used as a justification for geopolitical threats.