Japan post-patch = Awesome

[Crossed_Sabers]

Got a coastal start with 3 whales, 2 fish, and silver on a hill, and 10 iron all within 3 tiles of Kyoto... Ended up getting God of the Sea pantheon so all my fishing boats have additional production on top of the new culture boost. Can't wait to field an air force of Zeroes that no longer require oil! My 10 Samurai killing machines are all leveled up with blitz and march promotions now and currently crushing all opposition on my starting continent.

 

[Securion]

So you got five extra culture.



Yea that must be awesome.

 

[Arilian]

Can be awsome, to get a 3 atoll start for instant +2 and quick +6 culture.
You could use that to start with honor / religion, very fast free settler, or quick full tradition too...

fishing boat is pretty late for +1culture to really matter.

Also recently I had a 10 sea (6 fish + 4 crab) start. That is really with lighthouse and god of the sea (GotS) - +10culture just spice it up.

 

[MantaRevan]

Having actually played post-patch japan, I will tell you that over the course of the game the extra culture does add up. Is it awesome? No. But it is much better in my experience than sensible people would assume.

 

[Loucypher]

Japan went from Scrapheap-Tier to Average-Tier. It can, under certain conditions, be pretty freaking strong, and it's still quite a terror on the battlefield, but in general Japan is not as versatile as some other civs, nor as specialized strong as the likes of Babylon.
That extra culture is helpful in the early game, helps you pick up a few policies earlier. In the late-game, Japan gets some nice bonus tourism from those tiles as well which is something a lot of people tend to forget. That is where the real value of their new skills lay. Don't underestimate them, but also, stop hyping them up as a top-tier Civ. They still aren't. Only a few are.

 

[Matthew.]

They are better, but now highly dependent upon coastal starts and small continent type maps, much like Polynesia/Indonesia. If you cannot get a decent number of sea resources, they are essentially no different than pre-post Japan. No-oil Zero is useful in the right situation, but that change alone won't carry the Civ up from lower-tier levels.

Thus, they are a decent Civ now on the right map, otherwise not much as changed.

 

[civ54lyfe]

they're basically a much, much worse Korea. why do i equivocate JP with Korea? they're both guaranteed to start coastal. coastal is the most dangerous Hammer-starved start in the game. it doesn't mean you're 100% guaranteed to start the game with Hammer-starvation, but it happens more than often enough for me. people worry so much about Jungle starts and Hammers... well i agree with them if we're talking 80+% of your capitol's workfield being covered in Jungle, but if you start Coastal and your land portion is garbage with like 2 Hills and maybe a Stone and no other Hammer source (or MUCH worse!!) then generally i won't even take that start.

 

[Socratatus]

They are better, but now highly dependent upon coastal starts and small continent type maps, much like Polynesia/Indonesia. If you cannot get a decent number of sea resources, they are essentially no different than pre-post Japan. No-oil Zero is useful in the right situation, but that change alone won't carry the Civ up from lower-tier levels.

Thus, they are a decent Civ now on the right map, otherwise not much as changed.

I guess now we see why they were given that fishing dependency, so you`ll end up with a Faction that is actually LIKE the real Japan (an island). I don`t mind that, emulates reality of Japan.

Unfortunately allowing Japan no oil for Zeros is stupid though. Aircraft needed Oil. In fact Japan went to war because it needed more stuff like OIL. And no, `it`s a game not reality` excuse people come out with won`t cut it. Wish they`d chosen a different and more realistic solution there.

 

[Matthew.]

Ehh..., I'm going with "it's a game not reality"

Seriously though, there are too many discrepancies in the entire game that I find it difficult to have issues with it. Frigates take iron, but battleships don't need any? How am I getting production out of a sand dune in the desert?

Not to say the change was ideal and/or a better one couldn't have been made, but to be honest the realism disconnect doesn't bother me.

 

[NukeAJS]

they're basically a much, much worse Korea. why do i equivocate JP with Korea? they're both guaranteed to start coastal. coastal is the most dangerous Hammer-starved start in the game. it doesn't mean you're 100% guaranteed to start the game with Hammer-starvation, but it happens more than often enough for me. people worry so much about Jungle starts and Hammers... well i agree with them if we're talking 80+% of your capitol's workfield being covered in Jungle, but if you start Coastal and your land portion is garbage with like 2 Hills and maybe a Stone and no other Hammer source (or MUCH worse!!) then generally i won't even take that start.

I'm going to strongly disagree and say jungle start is the worst hammer start in the game. Actually, coastal/jungle is the worst. Coastal start definitely can suck, but I find that the chances of a coastal start sucking are far less than jungle starts.

 

[MantaRevan]

Coastal starts aren't really all that bad as of BNW, as it's pretty easy to ship a nice 9 or so hammers to the city via trade routes, making up for the lack or hills or plains.

 

[sadpickle]

I'm going to strongly disagree and say jungle start is the worst hammer start in the game. Actually, coastal/jungle is the worst. Coastal start definitely can suck, but I find that the chances of a coastal start sucking are far less than jungle starts.

I've been wondering about this. It seems before BNW jungle-heavy starts were welcome. The large amount of food tiles ensured fast growth and expansion. With the introduction of caravans you can really ramp up production by sending hammers from your satellites to the capital. And once you research trade posts those jungle tiles become super-lucrative gold+food powerhouses.

Why is jungle so maligned in BNW? It's still excellent food for a "blank" (no resource) tile. If there's no river it's even more essential.

 

[Gamewizard]

Why is jungle so maligned in BNW? It's still excellent food for a "blank" (no resource) tile. If there's no river it's even more essential.

Because jungle doesn't maximize output until late medieval/early renaissance, and many people here think the game ends at industrial (for me the game is halfway done at this point, but I don't play science heavy games). But if you can get a city in the jungle next to a mountain after the renaissance it can quickly become your science powerhouse.

Maxxed out jungle tile: sacred path, universities, trading post, +1 science from trading post via rationalism, +1 gold from tading post via commerce, economics researched, and golden age = 2 , 4 , 3 , 1

 

[Makavcio]

Unfortunately allowing Japan no oil for Zeros is stupid though. Aircraft needed Oil. In fact Japan went to war because it needed more stuff like OIL. And no, `it`s a game not reality` excuse people come out with won`t cut it. Wish they`d chosen a different and more realistic solution there.

It's not stupid. You are forgetting about one very important fact. During WWII access to oil was extremely difficult for some parties, especially Japan and Germany. Both these countries were producing sizable amounts of their gasoline from coal. A few yours ago, when oil prices were skyrocketing, several countries tried to reintroduce this approach to obtaining oil, but it's still more expensive than currently not very cheap oil.

In historical terms, no fuel for zeros can be attributed to oil production from coal.

 

[Aaron90495]

Because jungle doesn't maximize output until late medieval/early renaissance, and many people here think the game ends at industrial (for me the game is halfway done at this point, but I don't play science heavy games). But if you can get a city in the jungle next to a mountain after the renaissance it can quickly become your science powerhouse. Maxxed out jungle tile: sacred path, universities, trading post, +1 science from trading post via rationalism, +1 gold from tading post via commerce, economics researched, and golden age = 2 , 4 , 3 , 1

I agree that a mountain jungle city can potentially be extremely strong late-game, but the problem is that the most crucial turns are the earliest ones, and that's when jungle sucks. Also, your listed potential yield relies on you finishing Commerce and Rationalism - unless you're Poland or playing a culture game, how on earth are you gonna finish a starting tree, Commerce, and Rationalism, and still have any culture to dump into Ideologies (which are generally some of the strongest policies)?

 

[Socratatus]

It's not stupid. You are forgetting about one very important fact. During WWII access to oil was extremely difficult for some parties, especially Japan and Germany. Both these countries were producing sizable amounts of their gasoline from coal. A few yours ago, when oil prices were skyrocketing, several countries tried to reintroduce this approach to obtaining oil, but it's still more expensive than currently not very cheap oil.

In historical terms, no fuel for zeros can be attributed to oil production from coal.

Ok, good, if true. So do Zeros in Civ5 need coal?

I`m waiting.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Ok, good, if true. So do Zeros in Civ5 need coal?

I`m waiting.

In a game where iron is needed to build a frigate but not a battleship, dont lose any sleep over the zero not needing oil.

 

[Dralix]

It's a game, not reality.

 

[Silverman6083]

Ok, good, if true. So do Zeros in Civ5 need coal?

I`m waiting.

If you want to play a game like Civ & want realism then don't play civ play like eu4, civ is a great game but not even remotely realistic. Seriously.
Also is extra culture nice? Of course. Is it one of the best UAs ever? Absolutely not. Japan is much better than it was pre-patch but nowhere near Austria, Arabia, or Poland.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Japan is at least unique. They're the only civ with direct bonuses towards a split dom/culture victory, which is easier than doing one or the other. Go for the late game Autocracy explosion and take out the strong culture civs and use Cult of Personality to influence the weak ones. It's a strong strategy with anyone but a tad bit more potent for Japan.