KaTiON's Space Maps

[JosEPh_II]

AI has trouble with buildings and resources by Industrial anyway.

@raxo2222 ,
In these maps or in the Mod itself? And if in the Mod since when?

 

[raxo2222]

@raxo2222 ,
In these maps or in the Mod itself? And if in the Mod since when?

In mod itself, but didn't AI always get dumber by mid-game?
Tons of new resources appear, also factories are available meaning either AI has to build factories, or be actively trading needed resources.

From what I heard flavour, iAsset and iPower tags were misused for units/buildings meaning AI isn't as efficient in deciding what to do as it could be - that is valuation of stuff is bit wrong.
Also buildings themselves need complete review - it will be done after @Thunderbrd does unit review.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@raxo2222 ,
In these maps or in the Mod itself? And if in the Mod since when?

The problem is they don't see the unhealth as something to weigh the added production and bonuses against. We haven't quite sorted out the logic on that yet IIRC.

Production is usually considered of such chief value that if a building gives some, the AI asks for no further data before leaping to get it, particularly if it can get it quick. This can leave the AI cities a sinkhole of unhealth where the original idea from Hydro on these was to force the player to do something the AI doesn't even think to do, which is moderate based on need and NOT build ALL factories everywhere but rather spread them out.

Some effort considering how to improve the evaluation here would go a long ways towards correcting their overzealous production grab at any cost and help them navigate this era a little better.

 

[JosEPh_II]

In mod itself, but didn't AI always get dumber by mid-game?

Well that was dependent upon what timeframe of C2C's development. Early years no. Even after Crime was added no. But...when the extra Eras were introduced....could be so.

I personally have not had a game reach Modern Era in over 5 years that I could continue if I updated on a regular basis. The Last really good Game that I had in Ren and then Industrial was way back when the AI was placing stacks of Siege weapons on every tile around every city they owned. Before I made adjustments to the Siege weapons strengths and upped some of the strengths of melee and mounted in that time frame of the game. And that was before my Game speeds were discarded for the current set. (on that subject, If I had the will power to do so I would make a modmod based on my old GS system, IF I had the will power.... )

 

[raxo2222]

Well that was dependent upon what timeframe of C2C's development. Early years no. Even after Crime was added no. But...when the extra Eras were introduced....could be so.

I mean if AI or players tried not having missing resources - especially, if they are part of unit/building requirement chains, they would be more competent.

Also there may be possibility of mechanics, that AI doesn't know how to use, but players are good enough to exploit it.
For example you are targetting ores and oil producing improvements.
Then you could destroy AI trough attrition, or AI could strike your bauxite/iron mines or oil wells to prevent tanks and planes to be built.

 

[Maltazard]

You can see this behaviour by classical age, when AI builds all the different smelters and smiths in every city. The production bonus is negligible compared to the flammability and unhealthiness, I hardly ever build more than two or three smelters and smiths for each type of metal. Mainly because they do burn down so some redundance is needed. Some AI on the other hand will have 50 lead or tin ingots for trade...

 

[raxo2222]

You can see this behaviour by classical age, when AI builds all the different smelters and smiths in every city. The production bonus is negligible compared to the flammability and unhealthiness, I hardly ever build more than two or three smelters and smiths for each type of metal. Mainly because they do burn down so some redundance is needed. Some AI on the other hand will have 50 lead or tin ingots for trade...

This isn't related to map.
Flammability is nothing, if you play without events.

I guess resource producer valuation is broken - First of its kind is very valuable, but value isn't decreased after you get more.

 

[Thunderbrd]

This isn't related to map.
Flammability is nothing, if you play without events.

I guess resource producer valuation is broken - First of its kind is very valuable, but value isn't decreased after you get more.

It's purely the production - if there's any production it's 'yes please'. There's no evaluation on production benefits beyond that. Needs a little work.

 

[raxo2222]

It's purely the production - if there's any production it's 'yes please'. There's no evaluation on production benefits beyond that. Needs a little work.

I guess then I should have to give AI weight of 1 to all resource producers - currently those smelters, smiths, and every Industrial and later resource producer has AI weight of 1 among other things.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I guess then I should have to give AI weight of 1 to all resource producers - currently those smelters, smiths, and every Industrial and later resource producer has AI weight of 1 among other things.

That would only add to the automatic yes build it factor (AI weight isn't easily countered by any negatives either - and even a negative AI weight wouldn't help because AI weight isn't an issue until a much more generic 'Ok, so all high priority stuff has been built, now what?' evaluation.). There's really nothing that can be done in the xml except to remove the production benefit. I think its easier to fix the AI issue in the coding with it BUT it's a be forewarned that it may increase turn times to do it kinda thing. It's a lot of shortcutting to just consider all production giving buildings something you want and something you want immediately.

 

[tmv]

remove the production benefit

Perhaps all the metal wares should just give a bonus to the Forge / Foundry? Or would it be possible to give with the resource directly to the (connected) cities?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Perhaps all the metal wares should just give a bonus to the Forge / Foundry? Or would it be possible to give with the resource directly to the (connected) cities?

I WAS sorta thinking along these lines too - this could work. Make these buildings purely produce the resource, which should be sufficient for the AI to build them with some sense of importance (not sure HOW much and hopefully its enough) and then maybe just give a production bonus from having access to the resource to the more generic buildings that use those things. It would be worth seeing if that worked out well enough for the AI. Something similar could then be done for the factories that would correct our largest current AI flaw in the modern era. Well one of them anyhow.

 

[Secher Nbiw]

Hello everyone,

I hope this is the right place to post this.

I've been working on a 38 civ version of Kation's Standard Solar System v10, for the v42 moddb release version. Everything seemed to be working well except for one thing. For some reason when you get your first Gatherer (or train a 2nd Gatherer), they are unable to begin work on or create either a Seed Camp or a Scavenging Camp after the Gathering and Scavenging techs are researched. As near as I can tell the gatherers can't do anything except move around and turn standout status on or off. Trying to automate production just sends them back to the city, where they remain, not doing anything. I verified that this issue actually affects the original map (the version I mean is is the 1st upload below) as well as my modified version (2nd upload below). The only thing I modified was that I added more civs, and because the gathers weren't working, I also added the teams and some scenario and victory options, and I made Wrap Y=0 explicit. Before and after I added the teams and scenario/victory options, the Gatherers were the same. I tried clearing my cache before the playtest prior to when I added the teams and scenario options, in case that was the whole problem, but this didn't fix the issue. I am posting here in hopes that someone knows what might be causing this.

Thank you for any insight you can give me.

I'm excited to resolve these issues, since I think this version is going to be a pretty cool scenario once it is working, and it will be great to get the original map scenario working with v42 as well.

 

[miccal2000]

Does your civ have any gold? If not, the gatherers may not be able to build things.

 

[Secher Nbiw]

Wow, I feel like such a klutz for not realizing. Yes, that was the whole issue. Thank you for pointing that out. I have been playing mostly Pit's UEM scenario for quite a while, and in that scenario all civs start with 500 gold, so I totally forgot that gold was a requirement to build the first few improvements. I have now playtested my 38 civ version of the map for a while and haven't encountered any issues.

 

[Secher Nbiw]

My 38 civ version of the map works great. To anyone who is interested in trying it out, cheers, and have fun!

 

[miccal2000]

My 38 civ version of the map works great. To anyone who is interested in trying it out, cheers, and have fun!

Hi! Would you happen to have a version of this without any civs on it, please?

Thanks!

 

[Secher Nbiw]

Hi! Would you happen to have a version of this without any civs on it, please?

Thanks!

I created a random start location version for you. The number of randomized civs is limited by the worldsize define in the scenario, and the largest setting, Gigantic, only allows you to begin with 16 civs (with more possible to emerge later through BarbarianCivs or Revolutions, with the appropriate BUG settings). I've set this scenario to Gigantic, so there will be 16 civs at game start (in truly randomized locations), and more will emerge over time from Barbarian cities which already exist at game start as well, also in truly randomized locations, since Barbarian World and BarbarianCivs are turned on by default. There has to be at least one civ which has made landfall on a landmass before any barbarian cities there can turn into Minor Civs and then full Civs. Up to 40 civs can exist in this scenario if you set the BUG settings for it.

This is the closest I can get to making a completely randomized start, 38-civ version. This is a cool idea by the way.

If you meant you want a random start location version with just you at the beginning and no other civs until later, I will need to do a little research looking at another C2C scenario I know of that does that, so I can set it up correctly. I doubt it will be too difficult, but I haven't done it before so I can't be sure. Just let me know if you are interested in that, or whether you prefer starting out against 16 randomly located civs from the beginning.

Enjoy!

The file is attached below