[LP] Leader Pass Pack 5: Great Builders Revealed (Coming Mar. 15th)

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For those "complaining" that Yongle and Sejong look too similar...

View attachment 656236View attachment 656237

Two chubby, pointy-bearded guys in the same simple tunic that just swapped colors, and quite literally the same hat.

Of course they look alike! They were bound to look alike! I don't know why people seem so surprised about it: what did you thought would happen when they put in the same game two leaders that, quite frankly, had distinguished characteristics that are so similar?

Edit: On another hand, I find the models, yes, quite off, but I quite dig Ludwig (just sad he's already in his post-twink era, unfortunately...).

By the way, if Sundiata Keita wasn't the "Great Works of Writing" leader, I would have said that those three leaders would have been perfect to represent each a type GWAM: Sejong with his library would have got bonuses from Great Works of Writing, Theodora with her basilicas would have filled them with Great Works of Art, and Ludwig, patron of Wagner, would have got bonuses towards Great Works of Music.
Yongle and Sejong looking alike was not a foregone conclusion. It's not like there is only one generalized body+head that can be used to represent a male Asian leader. They could have "Civ 6-ified" Sejong's Civ 5 appearance and they definitely wouldn't look so alike.

Look at Qin and Kublai.
 
tbh i feel like ludwig looks fine, so does sejong. the hair on ludwig does have that somin bolivar-esque sharp angularity on the hairline of his mustache a tiny bit but im hoping it looks good in motion.
theodora looks a lot like that mosaic someone posted earlier in the thread, problem being the proportions look great for a mosaic and kinda uncanny on whats supposed to look like a real moving person
but really my strongest feeling seeing these models is that im dreading them getting added to the game and the asset limit not being raised. if im not mistaken, each leader pass gives the game 3 more leaders to have to load each game one starts, right? (or did my game stop accepting half my mods after rulers of sahara for some other, untroubleshooted reason? idk)
please please please whether thats the case or not i hope they raise the asset limit. there can still be a limit even just a higher one
 
For those "complaining" that Yongle and Sejong look too similar...

[IMG width="312px" alt="Sejong.jpg"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/sejong-jpg.656236/[/IMG] [IMG width="290px" alt="Yongle.jpg"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/yongle-jpg.656237/[/IMG]

Two chubby, pointy-bearded guys in the same simple tunic that just swapped colors, and quite literally the same hat.

Of course they look alike! They were bound to look alike! I don't know why people seem so surprised about it: what did you thought would happen when they put in the same game two leaders that, quite frankly, had distinguished characteristics that are so similar?
For me it's the face. They could have kept Sejong's face from Civ 5 and just put it on a chubbier body and it would look less jarring to me.
Theodora with her basilicas would have filled them with Great Works of Art,
Until the iconoclasm edicts are passed. :mischief:
 
To add to my post, the day before Civ 6 comes to Xbox Game Pass? Coincidence or maybe means they fixed their console problem?
Great find! This gets me excited! No asterix that its pc only and just a day later it comes to game pass for xbox and pc.
It would make sense that they release the pass that finally fixes the science bug just before opening the game up to a new bunch of players.
 
Yongle and Sejong looking alike was not a foregone conclusion. It's not like there is only one generalized body+head that can be used to represent a male Asian leader. They could have "Civ 6-ified" Sejong's Civ 5 appearance and they definitely wouldn't look so alike.

Look at Qin and Kublai.
Sure, they could have made Sejong look like he did in Civ V. But, then he wouldn't look like the most famous renderings of Sejong. If you look back a few posts, you'll see that our resident Korean nationalist was pretty happy to see this chubby Sejong instead of the guy from Civ V. So, I think that it was better to go this way.
 
Sure, they could have made Sejong look like he did in Civ V. But, then he wouldn't look like the most famous renderings of Sejong. If you look back a few posts, you'll see that our resident Korean nationalist was pretty happy to see this chubby Sejong instead of the guy from Civ V. So, I think that it was better to go this way.
I can confirm from many Korean social media that most Korean civ fans are happy or at worst just accepting of Sejong's civ 6 model. We have acknowledged how he looks bit too similar to Yongle BUT we are happy that they didn't just copy and paste his official portrait... which was case on civ 5.
 
Sure, they could have made Sejong look like he did in Civ V. But, then he wouldn't look like the most famous renderings of Sejong. If you look back a few posts, you'll see that our resident Korean nationalist was pretty happy to see this chubby Sejong instead of the guy from Civ V. So, I think that it was better to go this way.
Yes, he looks like the old portrait people keep citing. But it’s not exactly a very detailed portrait and it’s not realistic in proportion, so it’s not surprising that any number of approaches would fit the bill.

My point in citing Qin and Kublai was to demonstrate that there is more than one way to depict an Asian man who isn’t skinny.

It’s just silly to me to act like the Sejong and Yongle looking so similar was an inevitability. They look similar because the same person made them, or one artist built off of the other’s work for efficiency.

You also made a reference to some Koreans liking the design. I’m happy that others are happy with the it, but one’s ethnicity doesn’t make that person an authority on either the aesthetics or accuracy of how their culture is depicted.
 
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With respect to Ludwig, he's spoilt for choice as far as leader colour combinations go. Blue / White (Bavaria), Yellow / Black (Austria), Yellow / Red (Baden) and Green / White (Saxon duchies). Pic below is not official, just my idea using default Civ6 colours.
Wikipedia link. Clicky clicky.
test-ludwig.jpg

EDIT: added mockup of colours for Byzantium and Korea, using standard colours again.
test-kor-byz.jpg
 
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Ludwig is much better than Simon. Heck, he annihilates the guy.
Theodora suffers from too huge pearls, but this is a general issue that details have to be oversized.
Sejong is boring.
 
1. King Sejong is my favorte King of Old Korea. he invented Hangeul scripts for Koreans by using Pagsba script as a basis. originally Hangeul script is intended to be phonetic only scripts to facilitate fellow Koreans to read Chinese characters easier (very similiar functions to Japanese Kana original functions)
2. Teddora did return. but no Justinian I. But still her Civ V tanned iterations looks much better.
3. And about Louis II of Bavaria. eh. is that 'Napoleonic tailcoat' uniforms still common military uniform by 1870s eh? isn't his uniforms supposed to be 'fuller tunics' like what temporary leader of Prussia (Bismarc) wore?
 
Okay, I think we are getting a bit offensive to the dev team here for what is a free content drop for most, if not all of us.

A lot of comments about it being amateurish or low-effort. What if it is just that, an internheavy project made to have them graduate and grow their skills? They gain very little sales from this pack, so it makes sense to not invest too much in it. The marketing seems to be at that level too. Then perhaps we shouldn’t give them such a hard time on it?

Do you really want the most talented and experienced team working on this, or rather on the just announced Civ game? Again, they are giving us free content to make the wait more engaging. This benefits them too of course, but they never had to make it free. I do think it allows a LOT of leniency. Saying that the models don’t look as good as the rest is fine, but don’t be mean about it. As if you were an expert in your field of work from day one.
 
Okay, I think we are getting a bit offensive to the dev team here for what is a free content drop for most, if not all of us.

A lot of comments about it being amateurish or low-effort. What if it is just that, an internheavy project made to have them graduate and grow their skills? They gain very little sales from this pack, so it makes sense to not invest too much in it. The marketing seems to be at that level too. Then perhaps we shouldn’t give them such a hard time on it?

Do you really want the most talented and experienced team working on this, or rather on the just announced Civ game? Again, they are giving us free content to make the wait more engaging. This benefits them too of course, but they never had to make it free. I do think it allows a LOT of leniency. Saying that the models don’t look as good as the rest is fine, but don’t be mean about it. As if you were an expert in your field of work from day one.
First of all, they are certainly making money off of this DLC (as they should!). Maybe not from direct sales, but certainly from users shoring up the remaining DLC they don't have by purchasing the Anthology pack. 2K is not running a charity and surely wants a return on their investment. You can bet that their bean counters signed off on this, just like every product they release.

I have not read comments that are disrespectful personally to the developers. And anyone who is somewhat familiar with my posts here knows that I am the first to call people out for getting personal. No, all the posts are related to the art itself, not the artists. And it's not just the art that is disappointing. You also noted that the marketing is not to the standard we have come to expect, and neither is the overall polishing (ability text, abilities themselves, overall concepts and ideas...).

The fact is, Civ 6 is a AAA title with the world's biggest gaming publisher behind it. Civ 6, like other games, will live on into the future indefinitely, and all of this content becomes a permanent part of its legacy and its story. With every DLC we get that is less polished, the final portrait of Civ 6 looks less and less refined and more and more slapdash. That's a shame to me and it does affect our enjoyment of the game. One cannot help but see the differences in quality every game, as all of the content is mixed together, inviting comparisons of this DLC with stuff that was executed exceptionally well, like Gathering Storm.

You're making a big assumption that "interns" are working on this, by the way. I think that is an insulting assumption. Sure, the main team is hard at work on Civ 7, but that doesn't mean that the people working on this are less experienced or skilled. It could easily be a matter of time and resources allocated to the project, not the skill of the artists or developers. And for that reason, "having the most talented team working on this or rather on the just announced Civ game?" is a false dilemma.

Ultimately, I don't know what you're trying to convey here. That we're not allowed to give feedback? The new promotional process for this DLC focuses on just releasing the art first. What else do you expect people to talk about? It's all we have, and frankly, this is a strange marketing approach, considering the quality differences with earlier content are clear as day. At least this art release didn't devolve into more debates about "skin tones."

The last point I want to make is that our respectful feedback is helpful. It is 100% fact that the devs read these forums and other Civ 6 places of discussion and take fan feedback into account. This goes all the way back to the base game, where the devs altered the model of Teddy Roosevelt based on feedback, and continues to the present, where the devs have basically copied-and-pasted bug fixes to code that people like @Infixo have posted. So I think seeing what the general consensus on this art is is important to the devs--especially if, as you speculate, there are "interns" who are learning to on the job.
 
With respect to Ludwig, he's spoilt for choice as far as leader colour combinations go. Blue / White (Bavaria), Yellow / Black (Austria), Yellow / Red (Baden) and Green / White (Saxon duchies). Pic below is not official, just my idea using default Civ6 colours.
Wikipedia link. Clicky clicky.
[IMG alt="test-ludwig.jpg"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/test-ludwig-jpg.656269/[/IMG]
EDIT: added mockup of colours for Byzantium and Korea, using standard colours again.
[IMG alt="test-kor-byz.jpg"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/test-kor-byz-jpg.656273/[/IMG]
Sejong should get the dark red background invoking the royal Joseon standard, but Seondeok already gets it so...:dunno:
Hope Theodora gets some blue and purple combinations like hers in Civ 5. :mischief:
The last point I want to make is that our respectful feedback is helpful. It is 100% fact that the devs read these forums and other Civ 6 places of discussion and take fan feedback into account. This goes all the way back to the base game, where the devs altered the model of Teddy Roosevelt based on feedback, and continues to the present, where the devs have basically copied-and-pasted bug fixes to code that people like @Infixo have posted. So I think seeing what the general consensus on this art is is important to the devs--especially if, as you speculate, there are "interns" who are learning to on the job.
Yeah, they also changed Seondeok as well. It might be too late to do anything about Sejong though because the pack releases in a week.
 
For those "complaining" that Yongle and Sejong look too similar...

View attachment 656236View attachment 656237

Two chubby, pointy-bearded guys in the same simple tunic that just swapped colors, and quite literally the same hat.

Of course they look alike! They were bound to look alike! I don't know why people seem so surprised about it: what did you thought would happen when they put in the same game two leaders that, quite frankly, had distinguished characteristics that are so similar?

Edit: On another hand, I find the models, yes, quite off, but I quite dig Ludwig (just sad he's already in his post-twink era, unfortunately...).

By the way, if Sundiata Keita wasn't the "Great Works of Writing" leader, I would have said that those three leaders would have been perfect to represent each a type GWAM: Sejong with his library would have got bonuses from Great Works of Writing, Theodora with her basilicas would have filled them with Great Works of Art, and Ludwig, patron of Wagner, would have got bonuses towards Great Works of Music.

For me, the issue is that Firaxis is not consistent with their use of artistic license. Sometimes they base a character design so close to an existing portrait that it's essentially a copy (example: Poundmaker, Lincoln, both Sejong and Yongle in this case), and other times, they go completely off-piste and really express their creativity (Eleanor, Sundiata, etc.). So we know they can design characters using both approaches.

If I were designing the Leader Pass, and perhaps it's a good thing that I'm not, I think an easy fix to better differentiate the Sejong and Yongle character models would have been simply to play with their ages. We could have aged up Yongle, and made Sejong look a bit more youthful, or we could have done the opposite.

And, as a bonus, I would have given you full twink-era Ludwig.
 
My point in citing Qin and Kublai was to demonstrate that there is more than one way to depict an Asian man who isn’t skinny.
An Asian man who wears the same hat, who has a similar beard and body shape, who lived at the same time as the other, and who probably looked like the other one somewhat intentionally. I mean, sure, they could deviate from the known images of both leaders and just make up something. But, then we'd have a bunch of complaints about how inaccurate the leaders are. Posters here still complain about Qin.
You also made a reference to some Koreans liking the design. I’m happy that others are happy with the it, but one’s ethnicity doesn’t make that person an authority on either the aesthetics or accuracy of how their culture is depicted.
Sure. I expect that the designers pay special attention to people from the country that they're representing. I think they've even said as much in previous interviews. You're not wrong, but you're also not working at Firaxis, so it doesn't really matter what's "right" here.
 
Ludwig looks like he's being played by an actor I used to work with a lot in my law school musical theater group, so I'm happy just for that.

Even more so if I get to play these on Mac someday.
 
I'm most excited for Queen Elizabeth. But Theodora and Ludwig look amazing too, very close to their historical depictions. Sejong looks like a persona pack for Yongle, but he's just a secondary leader so it's ok. Definitely will be trying him last
 
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