Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
My current priorities are policies and adding more early-game opportunities, but do intend to get back to leaders after that. 
Leaders
- Thread starter Thalassicus
- Start date
In VEM 1
= 1
= 1
and so on. So as Thal said, it is more than twice stronger trait than Otto. Even when compared to Babylon UA, Korea is simply better. I would say tweak the bonuses to make them match with the other UAs. It could be like science building provide extra science & have an extra specialist slot instead of the OP +2 boost. This would make it different from Otto UA & still quite useful. I would suggest trying this in a beta version.
Txurce
Deity
In VEM 1
Actually, Thal said this:
After many games with both, this is not my impression.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
It's important to distinguish between the civ and trait. The Korean trait is definitely better than the Ottoman one, but I'm not sure the Korean civilization is better than the Ottomans. Korea has a naval UU. Non-land UUs are fundamentally weak and cannot be effectively balanced because of the reasons outlined in the original post. Both of the Ottoman UUs are land units. I think the powerful Korean trait balances the weak UU.
Txurce
Deity
black213
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2010
- Messages
- 1,708
I mean it would.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Spain has been in the "Civilization_Start_Along_Ocean" table since it was introduced in vanilla. In the rare circumstance this doesn't succeed in placing Spain directly on the coast, the trireme placement algorithm searches for the nearest ocean within a 10-plot radius.
I started playing as Persia today & their UA is a bit underwhelming. I mean it really doesn't match the rest of their traits i.e UU & UB. I would prefer if +1:c5move: is changed to 25% longer golden ages + higher cultural & production yield during golden age. We already have enough war UAs & especially movement bonus UAs. Lets make them back a more economic & expansionist civ for more flavour rather than warrior civ.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
The movement bonus is most useful for workers, because it doubles their speed in rough terrain. It does not affect the combat strength of military units so it's mainly useful for peaceful purposes.
Still, with that said Persia and some others did rate very low on the recent most fun leaders poll:
One idea with the Ottomans might be to let them capture sea barbarians like Germany does for land, and start the Ottomans with 1 free Trireme. Spain could instead get a free Caravel at Optics (instead of the current trireme).
Still, with that said Persia and some others did rate very low on the recent most fun leaders poll:
- Darius - Persia
- Hiawatha - Iroquois
- Sejong - Korea
- Suleiman - Ottomans
- Wu Zetian - China
One idea with the Ottomans might be to let them capture sea barbarians like Germany does for land, and start the Ottomans with 1 free Trireme. Spain could instead get a free Caravel at Optics (instead of the current trireme).
EmperorFool
Deity
I played as Persia in a recent game, and I specifically set up the map to maximize the benefit: Hot and Arid. I had a pretty big swath of desert that cut off my medium-sized peninsula off from the rest of the continent, and the part that mattered was all hills.
I was able to use a pair of Longswordsmen, a Pikeman, and a Crossbowman to hold Russia back for a few centuries before I bothered to build up an invasion army. Being able to move onto a hill and attack in the same turn was quite potent.
I was able to use a pair of Longswordsmen, a Pikeman, and a Crossbowman to hold Russia back for a few centuries before I bothered to build up an invasion army. Being able to move onto a hill and attack in the same turn was quite potent.
Txurce
Deity
Thal, if we're talking about the civs in the 0-2 vote range, it's more than the ones you mentioned:
Persia (0)
Iroquois, Korea, Ottomans (1)
Japan, Polynesia, Denmark, China (2)
It's hard to say whether there is a problem at all, though. From one pov, one of the four 2-vote civs ranks no worse than 13 out of 20, which is fine. No one picked Persia, yet they are still viewed as top-tier. I love playing with Korea, but apparently no one else does. You and I both enjoy Polynesia and China. I don't think I've ever played with Japan. And I loved Denmark until you modified them, and have never played with them since. I went through an Ottomans streak but lost interest, and like the Iroqouis but almost always choose someone else. It's hard to draw any conclusion other than that, if we want to focus on making some Leaders more fun, we may as well start on this end. (By the way, chu-ko-nu's have been nerfed overall, while longbows haven't, and navies mean more now; all that may explain China vs England).
I've given some thought to Denmark. What they lost was their unique war focus: a UU that upgraded into another UU. Since you are presumably happy with that change, here's an idea for enhancing their UA: give their ships move-after-fire. This really fits the Viking longboats' speed, and dovetails with the rest of the UA.
With regard to the Ottomans, I like your on-the-runway idea of giving them Germany's naval barb-capture UA. This would make them brutal raiders from the very start, and lead to unique water-based conquest schemes in which even triremes can effectively shell cities (since you have ships to burn).
Persia (0)
Iroquois, Korea, Ottomans (1)
Japan, Polynesia, Denmark, China (2)
It's hard to say whether there is a problem at all, though. From one pov, one of the four 2-vote civs ranks no worse than 13 out of 20, which is fine. No one picked Persia, yet they are still viewed as top-tier. I love playing with Korea, but apparently no one else does. You and I both enjoy Polynesia and China. I don't think I've ever played with Japan. And I loved Denmark until you modified them, and have never played with them since. I went through an Ottomans streak but lost interest, and like the Iroqouis but almost always choose someone else. It's hard to draw any conclusion other than that, if we want to focus on making some Leaders more fun, we may as well start on this end. (By the way, chu-ko-nu's have been nerfed overall, while longbows haven't, and navies mean more now; all that may explain China vs England).
I've given some thought to Denmark. What they lost was their unique war focus: a UU that upgraded into another UU. Since you are presumably happy with that change, here's an idea for enhancing their UA: give their ships move-after-fire. This really fits the Viking longboats' speed, and dovetails with the rest of the UA.
With regard to the Ottomans, I like your on-the-runway idea of giving them Germany's naval barb-capture UA. This would make them brutal raiders from the very start, and lead to unique water-based conquest schemes in which even triremes can effectively shell cities (since you have ships to burn).
But the problem is that u can easily get that from commerce for civilian units & +1 move together with healing & high strength spearman encourages warmongering. One of the reasons people like a civ is that its UUs/UAs/UBs are not only useful but also very fun. For example if u change German UA to -50% unit maintenance, that will be really powerful but very boring. Currently it really isn't that great of a benefit to get many GAs like they previously used to. I think u should change their UA suggested before for higher culture, production & gold output in GA & faster or longer GAs. This would mean that Persia will try to expand fast, becoming a powerhouse & their spears would allow them to hold off early rushes & get some GAs for u by killing foes etc.
Regarding China I think they are kind of jack of all trades & don't really have good synergy between their traits. UU is great defender as well as putting pressure on enemy, their UA is for Generals & their UB is for extra gold. I would love to see their UA changed. Currently there are so many warrior civs with better combo of traits like Mongols, Rome etc. China just needs some tweaks to make their trait work with each other in an interesting way.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Polynesia and Denmark are part of the same DLC so they'd get fewer votes since some people don't have that pack. Japan is probably an issue with Samurai.
Longbows were nerfed at some point. These are the strength modifiers vem applies:
-1
Crossbows
-2 CKN
-4 Longbows
Longbows were nerfed at some point. These are the strength modifiers vem applies:
-1
Crossbows-2
CKN-4
Longbows
Txurce
Deity
I think the only DLC 2-pack was Spain and the Inca, neither of which is on the list... or do you mean the more recent combo one? There may be one where only Korea was exempted - which could explain why they only have one vote.
Didn't Polynesia came before & Denmark came with the explorer's map pack or something.Polynesia and Denmark are part of the same DLC so they'd get fewer votes since some people don't have that pack. Japan is probably an issue with Samurai.
Longbows were nerfed at some point. These are the strength modifiers vem applies:
-1
-2
-4
Samurais could be buffed with 15% Vs melee units. That would be enough without making them too powerful
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
You're right - Polynesia was on its own, and Denmark was bundled with the Continents-Plus map.
I've added some of the suggestions here to the next patch.
I've added some of the suggestions here to the next patch.
Txurce
Deity
I have now gone from "cannot wait" for the next patch to "really cannot wait."
The more dramatic changes all look great to me. I'm hoping that the Persian, Danish and Ottoman synergies will make them a lot of fun for anyone playing a warmonger game (or early trade/CS for Ottomans); I'll certainly take them ahead of Germany now, if only for the variety. But I also like the more subtle shift to Spain, which strikes me as more realistic.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I had an idea while creating the "FreeUnitAtTech" table... what if more leaders have different starting units? This could be a way to buff some of the leaders who fared poorly on the fun leaders poll. Perhaps...
- Babylon - Bowman, Great Scientist @Writing
- Spanish - Warrior and Scout, Caravel @Compass
- Ottomans - Warrior and Trireme
- Korea - Warrior and Worker
- Iroquois - Mohawk Warrior
- Persians - Immortal
- China - Archer
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