Let's talk about Indonesia!

[GKShaman]

So I have just been playing the same civ(india) and style(talk and science) for awhile so I wanna bridge out. How is Indonesia?

Things that scare me about it:

Have to be naval - the fact that half your resource gathering will be from water that's easily disruptable a few enemy ships big me. Also routes easy to plunder etc. but is this part of the package for having a coastal empire? ( high risk high reward?)

Kris part kind of bug me but they make nice gifts for city state quests. Anybody have any luck with them?

Candi? Cool?


The 4 islands part THIS IS BIG. 4 separate land masses? Kind of hurts ur odds no? Limit map size?

 

[Delnar_Ersike]

Indonesia is Mr. McGimmick Jr., with Venice being Mr. McGimmick Sr. They're pretty bad on Pangea due to their UA, and you won't usually want to play anything else if you want a challenge.
Kris is their gimmick that doesn't work: Swordsmen aren't that useful anyway, and the fact that you not only have to attack with them once, but also that you get a bad promotion 44% of the time makes them just pointless.
Candi is their gimmick that does work: you'll usually get 4 faith out of them, even more if you end up getting pressured by a lot of religions. Even if you don't end up making use of the faith bonus, you can at least build Candis in cities without fresh water, so there's that.

 

[DScruggy729]

I wouldn't play Indonesia on anything bigger than a Small Continents map, their UA is something that you should, at least make an attempt to use. But make sure your cities are good, they don't all need a unique luxury cause your getting one via their UA but don't through it down just to get that resource.

I wouldn't bother with the Kris Swordsman, if you're going to use them then just pair a few with a Comp Bow rush, but that might be hard on maps like Small Continents or smaller where you're not assured a neighbor on your same landmass.

Candi's help though. Not game-breaking but a solid UB that will help if you want to get up a religion and your GP generation, but Indonesia isn't a particularly good civ.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The UA is kinda lame. It rarely comes in handy unless you're actually trying to use it. And it's only good for a few happiness (offset by actually having to make a new city to use it) and whatever you can manage to get the AI to give you in trade.

The Kris is also lame. The good promotions are really nice, but the bad ones are really bad. They really aren't good enough to do more than supplement your army of pikes/Landschnechts.

The Candi is the best feature. Especially that it can be built everywhere. The extra Faith is a nice bonus, but like most building yield bonuses, it favors wide play to really leverage it.

 

[Matthew.]

UA is decent, but you need to play wide to use it effectively (I know, a dirty word 'round these parts).

Keep in mind any land tile off the shoreline is considered "separate continent", so you can often grab those two or three tile islands still in range of the mainland, get your luxury, and still get a good amount of land tiles to work. Also, even Pangaea maps often have a smaller continent (has city-states only) with enough room for a decent city.

They also pair up with the first few Exploration policies well. 7 happiness just for settling a coastal island essentially covers that city for free. Combine with happiness tenets from religion (which is further supported by Candi) and happiness is a non-issue.

The wider almost ICS type of play isn't as nearly strong as it was in G&K, but still works if you like playing that way. They get my vote as one of the better Civs for it.

Kris is a swordsman, so the use is limited, but hey sometimes when you have 8 cities down right away, you need to fend off "building too aggressively" wars, so adds a bit of flavor I suppose.

 

[PhilBowles]

So I have just been playing the same civ(india) and style(talk and science) for awhile so I wanna bridge out. How is Indonesia?

Things that scare me about it:

Have to be naval - the fact that half your resource gathering will be from water that's easily disruptable a few enemy ships big me. Also routes easy to plunder etc. but is this part of the package for having a coastal empire? ( high risk high reward?)

Kris part kind of bug me but they make nice gifts for city state quests. Anybody have any luck with them?

Candi? Cool?


The 4 islands part THIS IS BIG. 4 separate land masses? Kind of hurts ur odds no? Limit map size?

You only really need two extra islands to get use out of the UA, and even Pangeas often have small islands in range of mainland workable tiles, or large enough islands to settle. Obviously Indonesia is best on archipelago and continent maps, but it's far from useless on larger landmasses. The real importance of the free resources is that, unlike every other civ, you have a resource monopoly and so always have a resource to trade with other civs for gold even in the late game.

The candi is the big practical bonus for Indonesia, and easy to work to get multiple religions in your cities.

The kris are gimmicky, but most bonuses are positive and survive through upgrades. Since Swordsmen are on the main infantry upgrade path, this is a better practical bonus than it looks on paper - you can mostly rely on getting a good free promotion on your infantry.

 

[Tatran]

You only really need two extra islands to get use out of the UA,

IMHO, to get all 3 unique happy resources (gloves, pepper + nutmeg), those 3 cities have to be on a different (new) landmass/island.
And you will only get 2 copies of each unique luxury.

 

[ThorHammerz]

Love the Candi....

Would be nice if the unique luxuries gave something like +6 happiness (up from the generic +4), to offset the unhappiness of having to plop down a city on (what are often) questionable settlement locations on non-archipelago-esque maps....

Gajah Mada..... how much GPT do you think he'd pay for a good treadmill?

 

[PhilBowles]

IMHO, to get all 3 unique happy resources (gloves, pepper + nutmeg), those 3 cities have to be on a different (new) landmass/island.
And you will only get 2 copies of each unique luxury.

That's true - my point was that you don't need all three to get good value from Indonesia's UA. If you get all three, you have one of the best UAs in the game, on top of a decent UU and strong UB. Having only two of the luxury bonuses is a good UA; having only one is still +4 happiness and +7 gpt for the rest of the game, which is perfectly fine.

Would be nice if the unique luxuries gave something like +6 happiness (up from the generic +4), to offset the unhappiness of having to plop down a city on (what are often) questionable settlement locations on non-archipelago-esque maps....

It's generally a bad idea to settle an extra landmass just for the luxury, if the spot is otherwise poor. But water tiles often have crabs, pearls or whales.

 

[ThorHammerz]

But water tiles often have crabs, pearls or whales.

That is only if you get lucky... there is no guarantee the map will assign the aquatic luxury resources as a "random/regional luxury type". Worse, if you are playing on a smaller-than-huge map, there is also the chance of these resources being disabled from the get-go. The only aquatic resource the map places by default is Fish, and even these are placed approximately once every [20 * (resource setting multiplier)] or so tiles.

 

[Amrunril]

Indonesia is one of the game's most distinctive civs. It has a wide array of situational (but potentially powerful) uniques, and therefore demands a great deal of flexibility to play effectively. At times, you'll need to abandon familiar strategies to unlock the civ's bonuses. At other times, you’ll need to ignore those bonuses, accepting that the cost of exploiting them outweighs the benefit. I won't pretend that Indonesia is one of the game's strongest civs, but if you like the idea of a civ that rewards flexibility and creativity and can end up playing very differently from game to game, it can be an incredibly rewarding civ.

Indonesia’s UU, the Kris Swordsman, is a frequently maligned but potentially very useful unit. While a couple of their unique promotions are negative (two of the eight possibilities), most are positive, and the best ones are absolutely amazing -extra movement and attacks, a massive defense and healing bonus, full heal on kills. These units can be upgraded and serve as the core of your army for eras to come. Units with the negative promotions won’t be worth upgrading, but their penalties are not by any means crippling, especially if you adjust your tactics to account for your units’ varying capabilities. The utility of Kris Swordsmen is restrained by the high costs of early game war and the uncertainty of spawning near iron, not by the possibility of getting bad promotions

Indonesia's UA- Spice Islanders- can also be very powerful, but there's no guarantee that there will be suitable islands anywhere close enough to you to be defensible, and you won't know until you've built triremes and possibly caravels to find out. Also remember that even a nearby island will require optics to access, which probably means either altering your early game tech path or delaying your colonization while you set up mainland infrastructure. That said, when you have the chance to do so, settling islands as Indonesia is a huge bonus- each city with one of their unique luxuries is essentially a free city happiness-wise. You just need to be willing to deviate a bit from "standard" strategies like 4 city tradition or 6 city liberty.

As flashy as unique luxuries and Kris Swordsmen are, though, Indonesia’s most dependable, and probably most important, bonus is its UB, the Candi. Figuring out how to use it, though, can be something of a puzzle (a puzzle that may not have the same solution every game). Other faith-oriented civs receive relatively small, very early bonuses, providing massive boosts towards founding a religion, and becoming less significant as the game goes on. The Candi, in contrast, comes too late to help you very much when it comes to founding a religion (you’ll almost certainly want to find some other means of doing this, though), but its bonus is huge -you’re essentially guaranteed +4 (2 base and 2 from the city’s dominant religion), and you’ll frequently get +6 or even +8 even without going out of your way to do so. With religions already founded, though, it’s up to you to find a way to turn this bonus into something that actually helps you win the game. With a good source of iron and hostile (or vulnerable) neighbors, that could mean using Holy Warriors to build an army of Kris Swordsmen. With a well-established rival religion nearby, it could mean spamming missionaries with Interfaith Dialogue. It could mean trying to spread a key founder belief across the world or exploiting a reformation belief like Jesuit Education or Glory to God. And whatever else you do, once you reach the end game, the Candi should ensure that you have more faith for great person buys than anyone else, giving you the edge in a close science or culture race. Faith in CivV is an amazingly flexible resource, and with the right planning, you can ultimately use it to accomplish just about anything. If figuring out how to do this (while also juggling a situational UA and UU) sounds like a fun way to play civ, Indonesia is a great choice. If you’d rather have something that pushes you into a specific, dependable, strategy, you'll probably be better off looking for a different civ.

 

[beetle]

There is a very nice recent War Academy article on Indonesia.

 

[poom3619]

I don't have much to add here. Indonesia is certainly a "strange" civ that you would need to adjust your strategy more than most civ to gain their benefit.

Keep in mind that, if your Kris swordsman got Enemy Blade- Takes damage if ends its turn in enemy land. You can garrison him in your cities.

 

[Redaxe]

I don' mind the Kris Swordsmen. Most people stick to ranged units but I do value having a few melee units as they provide a lot of utility that ranged units don't, And their promotions can be incredible. If their negative promotions you can always donate them to a friendly CityState for some quick influence.

You do have to be careful with the bonus luxuries though and to me this is the most frustrating part of Indonesia. If an AI that doesn't like you gets control of the world congress they can vote to ban your luxuries effectively killing your UA. To avoid this you generally have to play nice - don't piss AIs off especially if they own the World Council. Sell your bonus luxury to a civ that is peaceful and controls the WC. If you sell your 1 spare luxury to a rotten egg other Civs may try to ban luxuries that you given to that civ. So be careful with your unique luxuries.

 

[mrmike1949]

Kris units can get some great promotions: double attack, +50% attack, great general trait, defense+
And the promotions stay with them even after they're promoted up to Infantry (didn't get any higher in my game). Yeah, a few promotions are lame. gift those to a city state. Over all, I rate Indonesia as "pretty good" civ

 

[Kriogen]

For me Indonesia civ is weaker then Byzantine.

UA: feels like a noob trap.
- Need to learn to swim. So can't settle from start.
- Then you actualy need to find a good island. If it's not a good island, then this can kill you.
- Can't drop it on other standard lux (for faster city start) as your unique lux will override it. It makes finding a good island harder.
- And then you get what? Because of unique lux its happiness neutral. But wheres the "profit"?
- can sell lux for gold. Thats good. But it only makes a difference at start.

Lots of random factors. Like Byzantines getting religion. But I think religion is worth more then a couple of lux.

UB: Garden everywhere is nice. You don't get much out of religion part tho. One religion likes to snowball and supress others. Not so easy to get lots of them in your cities.

UU: perfect noob trap. Reason:
- what you get is random.
- if you get good stuff, cool. If not, you dump unit and build another one
- one unit means nothing and on average you need to build/rebuild lots of Kris swords. It ends up to cost as many hammers as a World Wonder (or more on a bad day).
- and all this in a game where most fighting is done with ranged units
- better to use "kris" hammers for generic spears and archers
- because of randomness, it feels like an overpriced version of Cataphract. You just can't get a proper horse/sword

Why weaker then Byzantines?
- not getting religion doesn't kill you. Settling junk island city just to get unique lux will kill you.
- not the best units, but atleast I get what I build

 

[beetle]

Need to learn to swim. So can't settle from start.

Four city tradition is hard with them, so that is fail for most maps. But Liberty is okay. So be really picky with initial cities until NC. Then three good islands after NC.

Then you actualy need to find a good island. If it's not a good island, then this can kill you.

Worse than that, you need three good islands. Agreed, settling a one tile island just for the lux is a very bad idea.

But it only makes a difference at start.

Gold boost at start is very nice, but you are getting 3-6 extra happy all game long. How is that not significant? To help avoid embargo, I try to trade away both copies of each. That helps them trigger WLTKD too.

Lots of random factors.

Agreed. Three islands being a decent option is pure RNG, more than what Byzantium or maybe even Spain needs from a map? And the Kris is all about the RNG. And Indonesia is one of several civs that is severely handicapped by not founding. And then dependent on RNG to get a couple of AIs to try and convert some of your cities. I guess one break though is that the UA works even when your religion is not majority -- so the three islands need not be close to the cap.

But I think religion is worth more then a couple of lux.

I think you are right, because the six (total) lux force you to go a little wider than might be optimal. Byzantium does not have a UB -- so I would would rank them about the same.

Garden everywhere is nice. You don't get much out of religion part tho. One religion likes to snowball and supress others. Not so easy to get lots of them in your cities.

Yes, I love not having the fresh water restriction to get a garden. If you found, getting three religions in each city is not too hard. Just pick up one more from trade routes.

UU: perfect noob trap.

Agreed, swordsmen are not a very useful unit. But frankly, it is nice to have a good excuse to work the tech tree a little differently. But the Kris promotions are the strongest in the game. Things won’t be bad, and there is a chance that things can go very well. So, low opportunity cost, and the potential for great reward. So interesting at the very least, and always worth trying to exploit. Very few civs reward risk taking, so I appreciate it very much.

Why weaker then Byzantines? - not getting religion doesn't kill you. Settling junk island city just to get unique lux will kill you.

Well, if I don’t get religion with Byzantium, I probably quit the game because it is so much less fun at that point. So yes, game killing by definition. The Indonesia player does not have to settle junk islands, that is a choice.

 

[Kriogen]

Indonesia would be a lot less strange if captured city (on other land mass) would also get unique lux.

It would then make more sense. Settle what you can. Capture the rest. Kris swordman can help. As a warmonger you will have multiple religions. Holy cities even. Good for Candi.

But you have to burn and then self-settle. Makes things annoying.

Anyway, for me, it works best for DomV. Just don't waste to many hammers on Kris and have a couple of backup settlers (up to 3). Liberty(or Honor)/Commerce/Autocracy way.

Map type would be small continents. Water, but not "just" water.

Edit: it works. But you can do it with any civ. Indonesias perks don't make thing much easier.

 

[Amrunril]

For me Indonesia civ is weaker then Byzantine.

UA: feels like a noob trap.
- Need to learn to swim. So can't settle from start.
- Then you actualy need to find a good island. If it's not a good island, then this can kill you.
- Can't drop it on other standard lux (for faster city start) as your unique lux will override it. It makes finding a good island harder.
- And then you get what? Because of unique lux its happiness neutral. But wheres the "profit"?
- can sell lux for gold. Thats good. But it only makes a difference at start.

Lots of random factors. Like Byzantines getting religion. But I think religion is worth more then a couple of lux.

UB: Garden everywhere is nice. You don't get much out of religion part tho. One religion likes to snowball and supress others. Not so easy to get lots of them in your cities.

UU: perfect noob trap. Reason:
- what you get is random.
- if you get good stuff, cool. If not, you dump unit and build another one
- one unit means nothing and on average you need to build/rebuild lots of Kris swords. It ends up to cost as many hammers as a World Wonder (or more on a bad day).
- and all this in a game where most fighting is done with ranged units
- better to use "kris" hammers for generic spears and archers
- because of randomness, it feels like an overpriced version of Cataphract. You just can't get a proper horse/sword

Why weaker then Byzantines?
- not getting religion doesn't kill you. Settling junk island city just to get unique lux will kill you.
- not the best units, but atleast I get what I build

The UA and UU are only "noob traps" if you feel like you need to use them every game. If you're in a situation where they're useful, they're quite powerful. If not, you can simply ignore them and focus on other aspects of the civ. Admittedly, you do have to invest in sailing and bronze working fairly early to find out what your options are, but beyond that, your uniques should never disadvantage you.

As for the "profit" from the UA, having an extra happiness neutral city is in itself a huge boost (provided you succeeded in finding a good place to found the city), even if you ignore the profit you can gain by selling the extra copies of your luxuries.

There's also no reason to delete your Kris swordsmen with bad promotions unless you're building them at the last minute before upgrading or are being limited by your iron supply rather than your production. A swordsman missing 10 hit points or suffering from a combat penalty is still a swordsman and will still fight respectably in a classical era war.

I do think that the comparison to Byzantium is interesting. Both Indonesia and Byzantium are civs that benefit a lot from religious play (the faith from Candis is a major boost- see my previous post) but don't have any boosts towards founding a religion, and both have very buy early games that make it difficult to take advantage of all of their bonuses. I would say that Indonesia is the stronger of the two, as Byzantium's UUs are pretty unexciting. I have played Indonesia a lot more than Byzantium, though, so that could be skewing my perception.

 

[Amrunril]

I’ve been defending Indonesia a lot, partly because it’s a civ that I personally enjoy and partly because it tends to get criticized for quirks and minor downsides that don’t actually hurt it very much (negative promotions on Kris swordsmen, getting faith from rival religions). That said, I do accept that they’re significantly below average power-level wise (at least as far as continents, Pangea and similar map types are concerned), it just isn’t for the reasons people like to talk about. Here are the factors I think are actually holding Indonesia back:

Busy Early Game- All of Indonesia’s uniques require substantial early game investment to be at their most effective. To find islands to settle, you’ll need to research sailing and build a trireme, and if you do find one, you’ll need to research optics before you can settle it. If you’re considering using Kris swordsmen, you’ll need to research bronze working to see if you have a source of iron available, and you’ll need to research iron working to actually build any. While the Candi will give you tons of faith whether or not you found a religion, a religion will give you much better options for how to use that faith. This means you’ll almost certainly want an early shrine in your capitol, and you may want to build more depending on what pantheon you get and how much competition you seem to have. Any one of these requirements would be relatively minor, but taken together (and considering that you presumably want to be getting your National College built at the same time), they mean that you’ll probably have to make some tough choices between your uniques and that any miscalculation can be a massive setback to your development. And even if you do everything right, it’s essentially impossible to make optimal use of Spice Islanders and Kris swordsmen in the same game.

Overall Game Balance- Perhaps even more problematic for Indonesia is the fact that the strategies it gravitates towards simply aren’t as effective as other strategies. This can be seen to some extent in the overwhelming importance of the National College, which makes rushing Optics or Iron Working far more costly than most of the game’s tech choices. Even more dramatic, though is the impact of policy choices. Piety should be a natural choice for a civ aiming to found a powerful religion but lacking early game faith bonuses, and Honor should be a strong option for a civ seeking to exploit a strong classical era UU, but opening with either of these policy trees comes at a massive cost to one’s infrastructure. Liberty, which fits well with Spice Islanders’ focus on expansion, is a somewhat stronger choice, but even it pales in comparison to the low risk, high reward benefit of Tradition-the one ancient era policy tree that lack synergy with any of Indonesia’s bonuses.

With all that said, Indonesia certainly can be played effectively (and, as I’ve said before, it’s a highly engaging civ, and a very satisfying one to succeed with). You just need to accept that it’s a very high risk civ, demanding both excellent play and good map conditions, and that even if everything goes perfectly it still isn’t going to be on the same level as civs like Babylon or Poland.