LK147 - world map, China

[LKendter]

The Great Library grab in Civ3 always seemed a bit cheesy. However, in this game I agree with the move.
I would look to take Berlin for *one* turn, sell everything in the city, get the techs, and then wait for German peace. The city is far to isolated from our empire to keep..
We may as well take the whole stack of elite units. If we get tech parity, a leader to rush a wonder would be nice.

 

[CKS]

Sounds like a good plan to me. Taking the great library now won't make it the ridiculously unbalancing thing it would be later.

 

[ToddMarshall]

The only caution I have to doing it now would be it might be best to wait till the scientific civs enter the next era so we can get those free techs they are going to pull from it. I believe we could stay relatively caught up after that, especially if we can somehow manage to get ToE.

Cleo and India are in democracy, and probably lack only Magnetisim and maybe Metalurgy, so...

I would not wait past that in any case, and am ok with doing so now if the team prefers.

Unrelated, I suspect India might be our next target. With all that jungle, it's probably got rubber there somewhere.

 

[LKendter]

Unrelated, I suspect India might be our next target. With all that jungle, it's probably got rubber there somewhere.

India is already on my list, along with Egypt (a few ex Mongol towns) as the logical targets for a clear empire. Plus, India has two cities in Japan I want (IRON!).

 

[Greebley]

Preturn:
Look over the situation, and trade for Berlin's map. An assault on Berlin definitely seems acchievable.
Switch capitol to MDI. We chose Monarchy which means we want to engage in wars which means we should always build units, and not wealth.
Raise lux to 10% and switch away from Colloseums where we won't lose shields. I have never considered colloseums worth while.

IBT: Ordered to leave Australia. Not sure our settlers will be able to get far.

710 AD Build on the Iron and the Island

IBT: Single Zulu shows up - Impi
Iroquois declare war. Tes is attacked.

720 AD: Kill the Zulu.

IBT: Russia demanded our Silks. I tried to find a trade for them, but the only one was Russia willing to pay 3 gold for them. Instead we gave them for free. Our plan depends on us not at war with Russia.

730 AD: Zzzz
740 AD: Units are now all at Hovd for next turn.
750 AD: Get Embassy with Egypt, Persia, Russia so we can make ROP deals. Make the first deal with Egypt and move into their territory.
IBT: Iroquois try to sink our curragh, we win. Tes (mongol) falls to Babylon.
760 AD: Can only move 2 due to other units. Send 2 armies ahead to try to grab key tiles to move onto - and one to guard the stack.
IBT: Rampaging Germans destroy the final Mongol city.
770 AD: We are forced off road as some Egyptian troops are fortified. Hopefully this won't happen too many times.
IBT: Magellan is now being built by several civs. Oddly Australia is doing very well in tech being one of the first.
780 AD: Our two galley with Settlers get to the end of Indonesia and find no empty islands. They start heading back.
Some Curragh that are otherwise useless because everything is explored will try to cross to find islands.
790 AD: We got Engineering. I lower our science to minimum. We will get the techs from GLib and if that somehow fails, we can buy instead of self research. Songhai has Monotheism and not Engineering. If we get a enough cash, I will do the trade (again in case we fail). If Songhai gets Eng first, I will just keep the cash.
IBT: An absurd war: Egypt and India vs Australia. Cross water wars never work for the AI. Iroquois also gets pulled in.
800 AD: Do the deal for Monotheism and start min research on Theology. I picked this because if our plan fails we will want to buy Chivalry first and then go for Cavalry. We will never buy Theology, so it has the most chance of 50 turns. Hopefully though, it won't matter which I choose.

Notes:
The forces are off and walking. Likely the AI will be in the next era before we get there.
We do not yet have an ROP with Russia.
I tried to draw a path but there appears to be no 'shortest' route path. I marked one decent path so far. We have to go under Saint Petersburg so we need to stay fairly South. Once we get as far as I marked on the map, buy Russia's territory map again to see what is best.

 

[CKS]

I've got the save. I'll march toward Berlin.

 

[LKendter]

Summary:
OUCH - Indian has stacks of rifles. The next war is going to be tough.

We have some map trades available. At the minimum we can give France WM to TM and $60. Australian TM and Babylon TM are also available. We need to maximize these trades as much as possible.


ROSTER:

LKendter (on deck)
Todd Marshall
Greebley (just played)
CKS (up. and already got it)

 

[ToddMarshall]

Just a quick question: Why are we running luxuries when leterally no city needs them? Maybe that wasn't always the case, but it is currently.

Otherwise, looks pretty good. Looks like it'll be the end of Lee's turn or the start of mine before we get to Berlin. Hopefully they don't have rifles by then... hopefully India doesn't have infantry by then (or heck, maybe that would be ok as long as they aren't the only ones,,,(

 

[CKS]

I didn't have the time to play yesterday that I thought I would, but I'll be playing this afternoon.

I expect the Germans already have rifles, though I didn't think to check to see if they'd gone industrial, and if they don't already, they probably will by the time we get there. I don't think our current stack is sufficient to take Berlin if it is defended by rifles. If we bought chivalry, riders could catch up with our stack in progress. (MDI would take a while to get there.) Is this worth doing?

Also, how do people feel about sacrificing a few swords to suck rifles out of the city? Sometimes I find the AI will send many rifles out to attack instead of defend. Does this take advantage of the AI too much?

 

[ToddMarshall]

The Germans do not already have rifles. Only India and Egypt are in the Industrial Era. However, it's a minimum 17 turns to Berlin, and that's if we don't have to go off the direct path (which we probably will) so they will probably have them before we get there, I agree.

If they have more than 2 Rifles in Berlin, I agree that we probably can't take Berlin, because they will probably have a gazillion other units in the city too.

I would be fine with getting Riders in the near futue to suplement the stack if possible.

Getting the AI to do stupid things is fine within reason. The thing that we could do that would probably be exploitative would be to flash a catapult or two at them to draw them out where we could pick them off easily, which would be akin to the worker sacrifice, although not quite as exploitave.

The empty city to bait the AI, or especially doing things that makes the AI keep moving their units back and forth without ever attacking anything (aka "puppet strings") is over the line, and should be avoided.

 

[CKS]

Our forces headed toward Berlin are:
9 swords
22 cats
3 horses
2 spears
3 sword armies.

We can get chivalry from Zululand for peace plus 83 gpt. We could pick up invention for another 108 gpt. This is wasted money if we get the GLib.

This is what I think we should do:
1. Build a bunch of horses in the next few turns.
2. Buy chivalry from the Zulu for gpt.
3. Upgrade horses to riders using the rest of our cash, start building riders.
4. Send riders to Berlin in time to catch up with the stack. If they leave in the next 7 or 8 turns, they should be able to catch up.
5. Cross our fingers.

Thoughts?

 

[ToddMarshall]

I endorse the idea of trying to get Riders. The expense is really high, but if we aren't able to come up with Berlin, we'll have spent most of our (admittedly outdated) military, and we'll have a hard time cracking Rifles and soon infantry with MDI. We need TGL for Rifles and Cavs .

I would NOT buy Invention at this point.

 

[CKS]

Turn 0:
Map trading: picked up some cash and map information.
Swap builds and MM in preparation for horse to rider program.
IBT: Songhai allies Egypt against Greeks. Egypt and Russia sign an alliance against Australia. French start Magellan's.

turn 1: Marching.
IBT: Impi shows up. Brazil and Egypt sign an alliance against Greece. Aztecs start Shakespeare's Theater, Persians start Magellan's, Indians finish Magellan's.

Turn 2: MDI retreats Impi, Sword kills it. Marching and building horses. Embassy and ROP with Russia. Moscow is defended by 7 pikes, though they have saltpeter hooked up.
IBT: Aztecs and Egyptians ally vs Greeks. Egypt asks us if we want in; I decline. Aztecs and Germans start ST, India builds an embassy with us.

Turn 3: Marching, building horses.
IBT: Babylon, Venezuela and India MA vs. Australia. Accept continues peace with Greeks.

Turn 4, 5 Same

Turn 6: Trade 85 gpt for chivalry and peace with Zulu. Upgrade 12 horses to riders. We can upgrade another horse each turn.

Turn 7: Get territory map of Argentina as they can now trade maps. Rider stack starts moving.
IBT: Venezuela and Egypt ally vs Greece.

Turns 8-9 Moving.
Turn 10: 12 riders and the walkers arrive at German border. Walkers could step over the border this turn, but I'll leave that for Lee. There is one trailing rider, that I hoped could catch up, but it got detoured by some passing units, so it won't. Most of the rest of the mounted units are in Hovd.

Germany went industrial this turn or last turn - they were in the middle ages in 880. Maybe they won't have a lot of rifles.
Good luck!

 

[LKendter]

ROSTER:
LKendter (up and got it) I really didn't expect to be the one attacking Berlin when this was proposed by Greebley! That is a lot of marching time.
I don't expect to play before Saturday - to out to much the next 2 nights.

Todd Marshall (on deck)
Greebley (skip? - posted in another thread to skip until 11/26, but never posted here).
CKS (just played)

 

[ToddMarshall]

I THINK I can squeeze a turn in Sunday if you're able to play Saturday, otherwise next week will be iffy for me as I'm working 60 hours next week. Well, I also could probably get a turn in if you're not in a hurry for it to be played by playing in a few turns each night...

If the Germans just went next era, they may not even have rifles depending on what free tech they pulled. I expect this will be a lot easier than we feared, but better safe than sorry.

 

[CKS]

ROSTER:
LKendter (up and got it) I really didn't expect to be the one attacking Berlin when this was proposed by Greebley! That is a lot of marching time.

It was a long way to march, but not quite as bad as Todd indicated - when he counted 17 turns, we didn't have an ROP with Russia. I was quite pleased that the riders made it to the border just in time.

 

[Greebley]

Good work at getting the Riders there. That will definitely help.

We may want to try to investigate Berlin before we declare war - or just build an embassy if we haven't yet. Then we have some idea what is there.

Keep at least one army with high hp so we don't get attacked. I think 10 hp should be enough even if they have a cavalry.

I will be gone until the 26th as mentioned by Lee. Just give me a skip if I come up in that time.

 

[ToddMarshall]

It was a long way to march, but not quite as bad as Todd indicated - when he counted 17 turns, we didn't have an ROP with Russia. I was quite pleased that the riders made it to the border just in time.

Yeah, I was surprised by how long it was when I opened up the save, but I never questioned it. When I saw you'd gotten there in 10 turns I was like... how did he...oh, yeah, we didn't have an ROP or fresh TM from Russia... oops. Pleasant surprises are ok with me though

 

[draaibaar]

lurker's comment:

Following this interesting game:

Keep at least one army with high hp so we don't get attacked. I think 10 hp should be enough even if they have a cavalry.

In my own private game lately I did have an army of knight's in a city with almost full health and still they got attacked by maybe 10 ancient cavalry and I lost this army. I was very surprised. I was used that an army got only attacked when already heavily wounded.

 

[CKS]

Armies in cities are attacked no matter how strong they are.