Mad Monty Rush

[Carl5872]

I just became enlightened to the 4 city tradition opener and must say WOW!

Keeping that in mind, I am at a loss on how to effectively use Montezuma's Jaguar warriors.

I was thinking of trying the above strategy but replacing archers for Jags, but thought by the time I pull it off, they may be too weak to capture a city. Would it be possible to just have them run around breaking barbarian camps until you research ironworking, upgrade them to swords, and THEN conquer a neighbor?

Another method I considered was to use a rush strategy. Build order Scout, then nothing but Jags. Go down Honor, and use the gold from barb camps and trading resources to buy a worker, then a shrine then a monument then a barracks. then when you have 6 Jags (or maybe 4-5 Jags and 1-2 archers) rush your nearest neighbor.

Thoughts/improvements on both strategies? Or is there a better one for Mad Monty you know of? Please share

 

[kamex]

I would certainly wait until Iron Working and upgrade to swords (keeping the heal promotion and the jungle/forest bonuses). The problem with this is that Iron Working takes ages, and its a gamble as you may have no Iron nearby, and even if you do enemy pikes will be around soon which can really mess up your plans until you get Longswords.

It may be better to turtle up your capital using the Floating Gardens, build lots of Jaguars, then mass upgrade them much later to LS or Musket-men, keeping their promotions, then destroy a neighbor (you'll want Trebs too).

 

[Waraddict]

Doctrine:
I always open tradition with Monty because the UB got such a big synergy with this doctrine. The food bonus from the floating garden cumulated with the tradition bonus let your population boom.
I would stay away from honor as a first doctrine because its opener is really redundant with the UA. The healing ability of the UU actually compensate the bonus against barbarian and the culture bonus is simply redundant with the UA. Honor is nevertheless a good doctrine for the Aztec as it allow leveraging the UU ability. But i would not prioritize it over tradition.
Freedom got a good synergy with the UB letting you got a high pop and running a lot of specialists.

Starting bias : Jungle.
As Aztec you will mostly start in jungle. Common resources will be sugar, dyes, spice, bananas. Be aware that you will need BW to be able to improve jungle tiles (exept for trading posts and camps). Jungle is a very useful tile and you should think twice before chopping one. Jungle provide 2 food, 2 science (with university), 1+ gold (with trading post) and potentially 1 culture from the right pantheon pick. They also give bonus to your UU and reduce the mobility/visibility of most troop attacking you. I only chop jungle to connect luxuries and on hill if i need extra production. Otherwise i usually let them even on bananas.

Religion:
I would only really consider 2 or 3 pantheon on a regular basis. +1 culture for jungle is great. Combined with the UU ability it let you build culture incredibly fast in the early game. +15% food is also very good as it has a further synergy with tradition and your UB. A third good pantheon is +1 culture from plantations because you will probably have many in your capital (in this case i would connect bananas). Other pantheons should be more dependant on your specific start. A follower belief that further synergise with the UB is "feeding the world" giving further food from shrines and temples.

Technology:
Some tech are specially important: BW allow you to chop jungle, which you will need to connect most of your luxuries. Calendar as you will mostly have resources requiring this tech to improve. Education as is unlock the university which greatly enhance jungle tiles. IW to improve your Jaguars. The presence or absence of Iron will prove decisive for your strategy. Guilds because it unlock trading post to further enhance your jungles. Economic science to further increase your benefits from trading posts.

Wonders:
Very dependant upon the level you play and your strategy. Nevertheless the Hanging Garden got a real synergy with the UB.

Maps :
Playing amazon, tropical forest, lake maps will definitely give a very strong game. Curiously the desert map can also yield a very powerful mixed jungle/desert starting location for an OCC.

Summary :
Many aspect drive the Aztec to have a booming population with jungle tile to support both its science and money output. This is IMO a strong incentive to go tall with tradition 4 city opener and run many specialists.
The UU abilities will be transmitted to upgrades and certainly are a strong incentive to be waging war during the whole game. The number of jaguar you will build is dependant upon your grand strategy.

Grand strategy :
I believe that Aztec benefit the most from a 4 city tradition opener evolving in a tall empire incorporating puppets. This particularly suit cultural and military victory conditions. An OCC cultural game can also be very successful.

 

[Carl5872]

Thanks Waraddict, this was really helpful! I cant wait to try it out now!

 

[Syntax Error]

For the purpose of the Floating Gardens, take note that Oases count as Lakes. Also, Floodplains make a great start for Aztecs, simply because you can get a lot of Food + faith with them.

 

[Waraddict]

Wanted to make a correction to my previous post concerning Honor opener.

I just realized that the Aztec UA and the honor opener cumulate. Meaning killing a brute with a Jag/spear will net you 16 culture, making the honor opener well worth it.

 

[Mesix]

In response to the question asked by the OP, I would recommend using archers and jaguars in your early rush. The can be upgraded to CB and swordsmen when the technology permits. Hunting barbarians will only net you 2 promotions per jaguar before you are at the xp cap. Early warring get you more promoted units to upgrade.

My only concern with an early rush strategy with the Aztecs would be happiness limitations. If you are leveraging the growth bonus of both the UB and Tradition, you are likely to have happiness problems in the early game. Going on a conquering rampage will only add to the unhappiness.

 

[Waraddict]

I am going to try out the following cultural strategy on one of my games which is a mixed Jungle/desert start with marble and sugar. I ll report if it was successful or not:

Open Tradition, Open Honor, then Open and fill the liberty tree.

Will start the game as an OCC, trying to get Sacred path. +1 Culture from Jungle +double culture per barb kill should let my culture skyrocket specially with a single city. Will also try to ally a cultural CS if i got spare money.

I will aim for NC and Epic Heroic before founding cities 2-4. I will delay legalism until after i got Petra in Capital and monument/amphi in all satellite cities.

 

[Carl5872]

In response to the question asked by the OP, I would recommend using archers and jaguars in your early rush. The can be upgraded to CB and swordsmen when the technology permits. Hunting barbarians will only net you 2 promotions per jaguar before you are at the xp cap. Early warring get you more promoted units to upgrade.

My only concern with an early rush strategy with the Aztecs would be happiness limitations. If you are leveraging the growth bonus of both the UB and Tradition, you are likely to have happiness problems in the early game. Going on a conquering rampage will only add to the unhappiness.

I wouldnt go too crazy with early rushing, just take the nearest capital and call peace. What number of jags and archers would you recommend for a successful attack on a city?

 

[Mesix]

4 archers and 2 melee units are a pretty good early invasion force up to about Monarch difficulty. On Immortal/Deity you are likely to come up against more AI units.

What I would recommend is to park one melee unit on a forested hill (or other good cover tile) outside the city on the same turn that the 4 archers move into firing position. The AI will generally shoot at the melee unit and more cover will let it last 1-2 turns longer before having to retreat. Fortify the unit and let it heal every turn. The archers shoot every turn. It should only take about 3 turns to take a city down with 4 archers. The second melee unit is a reserve that should stay outside the city firing radius unless it has to replace the fortified unit on meat shield duty.

Once the city is down to 0 hp, even a heavily damaged melee unit can take it over. I often use scouts to take cities (but not as meat shields) after the archers have decimated the city defenses.

Screenshots from a recent Babylon game:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[Buccaneer]

I didn't know where to stick this, so I chose this thread to ask the opposite question.

I'm playing Deity, small Pangaea and found myself next to the Aztecs. On turn 37, they came at me with 9 Jaguars and Archers and 5 turns later, they were up to 16 of them (of those that I could see on the offensive). How in the world did they do that??? I was lucky just to have a handful of pitiful Archers.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

I'm playing Deity
...
How in the world did they do that???

You answered your own question
On Deity, the AI cheats like crazy.

 

[Buccaneer]

You answered your own question
On Deity, the AI cheats like crazy.

After five attempts over the Thanksgiving weekend, I finally understand what other were talking about. I even went so far as to choose my opponents and while I managed to survive until I got my CKN, I was 1 1/2 eras behind by that point. I guess my Immortal successes and skills doesn't translate well to Deity.

 

[loki75]

I have only won deity by turtleing up and following a "flawless" science exploit/strategy.
Cooking up the map helps a bit too if you can get a coastal start with only one or two close neighbours.
I prefer to play immortal.

 

[Buccaneer]

I have only won deity by turtleing up and following a "flawless" science exploit/strategy.
Cooking up the map helps a bit too if you can get a coastal start with only one or two close neighbours.
I prefer to play immortal.

That's what I end up doing the last two attempt (both small Pangaea). The first had Aztecs as my neighbor and their headstart was truly insane. Then I cooked up less aggressive neighbors but they still have so much tech and military advantages that I didn't see how I could beat them.