[MOD] MagisterModmod

Unfortunatelly it didn't work, but thanks.
I tried also on my old instalation of civ4 (but on j: drive) and didn't work either.
Hopefully some future version will work.

Hm, did you ever try installing Civ4 outside of program files?
 
I have to give Tholal some props.

I was trying out Illians on EMP (slowly increasing my difficulty as I get the hang of this mods changes).

I was beating up the Ljosalfar neighbor pretty good when out of nowhere they showed up with 7 mages who could cast fireball. It looks like they decided to build the fire node, and didn't get it from a feature. They also timed March of Trees. I got absolutely wrecked by them and lost all of my named Priests of Winters.

Fantastic use of the game mechs by an AI.
 
i have been wondering how to depict it properly and this would be a very nice way to put some challenge back into the end-game.
Only thing I'd suggest is for the effect to start slow before speeding up instead of the linear progression you seem to suggest.


I did modify my Crucible code so that the effect starts slow and gets stronger with time. I have the number of mana sources destroyed or spell spheres removed ech turn based on a random number up to 1/7th of the number of turns it has been since the wonder was completed. In my test games so far, that tends to mean you are unlike to notice much for the first 20 turns but all the world's mana is destroyed within about 75 turns and no units are left able to use any magic within about a hundred turns.

Originally I coded it so that it eliminated unimproved mana first, then nodes, and then unique features, but I think the code is simpler and more elegant if they are all treated the same (except only ordinary nodes disappear with the bonus itself).

Now I just have it first eliminate mana from the map, then from cities, and then start taking promotions away from units. It starts with archmage level promotions, then mage level, then adept level, then buffs, then finally starts destroying equipment.


I'm thinking of also causing the Crucible to cause newly trained arcane units to begin without their highest level channeling promotion, so mages become de facto adepts and archmages are basically mages. The existence of the Crucible would also stop adepts from getting their free civ-specific spell spheres which normally don't require mana..

I'm also thinking of it making Elementals, the Undead, Angels, Demons, and Golems start out weak, and having it start killing those units outright once all the other magic is gone from the world.


Originally I was thinking of the Crucible as primarily a technological machine of industry that just happened to inefficiently use mana as its power source, but now I'm thinking of it in more the metaphorical sense of a device designed to refine a crude ore by separating out all the impurities. I'm thinking its original purpose was likely to cleanse the world of the taint of hell still left behind after the reconquest of the Fane of the Lessers. It might not be primarily anti-magic, but anti-Armageddon. I'm thinking of making it reduce the Armageddon Counter each turn by just as much as it reduces the world's mana supply. Maybe Righteousness would be a more appropriate tech prereq, or an additional one.



That'd be amazing XD

How attached are you to the idea of effects being permanent? Would it be better if razing the city where the wonder is located reverses the effect?

I originally said permanent because I didn't think it would be possible to restore the mana from buildings accurately, but I think I've figured it out. Restoring mana granted by unique features is fairly simple if the improvements themselves stay on the map the whole time.

I think I could use the temp bonus feature without an actual temp timer to store the data of regular mana sources (and similar the temp improvements feature to store the nodes ), but if something else changed a counter it could mess stuff up. I think changing the normal bonus or improvement might clear the temp one too, so building a farm and then discovering wheat or something there could permanently eliminate a mana node. (I definitely would not want to risk losing unique features through such a method.)

It is probably not worth restoring ordinary mana sources on the map at all, as The Rites of Oghma can make up for their loss.
 
Eep! That's one wonder I'd love to be able to turn "off" in the game options. Sounds cool though.
 
Eep! That's one wonder I'd love to be able to turn "off" in the game options. Sounds cool though.

That would be the best. A permanent feature, but with an option to disable the wonder if you don't want to deal with it at all. I feel like, while it would absolutely shatter a magic-heavy civ late in the game, you still got some time to react to it. There should be some kind of event though, perhaps even making the city marked on the map (just in case you don't know where it's at) warning all players about the construction of the wonder.
 
That would be the best. A permanent feature, but with an option to disable the wonder if you don't want to deal with it at all. I feel like, while it would absolutely shatter a magic-heavy civ late in the game, you still got some time to react to it. There should be some kind of event though, perhaps even making the city marked on the map (just in case you don't know where it's at) warning all players about the construction of the wonder.

I'll be honest. This would make some civs almost unplayable at Immortal/Diety.

Take Sheaim. What do they have that wouldn't get directly hosed by this? This would nuke their Casters, Demons and Disciple units. If the Sheaim player wasn't ready to go clean this up within several turns, it's GG because the civilization would basically have no way to undo it. Bear in mind, in this mod you need death mana to make pyre zombies.

What about the elves? They don't have siege. They can't effectively take out a city without magic. If this gets rolling on them, sure they don't auto-lose the way Sheaim do... but it's certainly close to that.

I get the RP/lore of having this be a thing... but really it should probably be turned off in options by default.
 
Maybe the Crucible could have an AC requirement? Seems reasonably flavorful and could prevent it from taking over the late game regularly. Sezneg's point about the Sheim in particular still stands, but mass-rifting to the city with the Crucible could allow them to destroy it before it utterly wrecks them.
 
I think I will go ahead and make the effects of the Crucible all reverse after the city containing it is razed, including the ordinary mana sources and nodes. The temp bonus/improvement mechanics are not really used by anything else currently that could mess it up.

Eep! That's one wonder I'd love to be able to turn "off" in the game options. Sounds cool though.

That would be the best. A permanent feature, but with an option to disable the wonder if you don't want to deal with it at all. I feel like, while it would absolutely shatter a magic-heavy civ late in the game, you still got some time to react to it. There should be some kind of event though, perhaps even making the city marked on the map (just in case you don't know where it's at) warning all players about the construction of the wonder.

I'll be honest. This would make some civs almost unplayable at Immortal/Diety.

Take Sheaim. What do they have that wouldn't get directly hosed by this? This would nuke their Casters, Demons and Disciple units. If the Sheaim player wasn't ready to go clean this up within several turns, it's GG because the civilization would basically have no way to undo it. Bear in mind, in this mod you need death mana to make pyre zombies.

What about the elves? They don't have siege. They can't effectively take out a city without magic. If this gets rolling on them, sure they don't auto-lose the way Sheaim do... but it's certainly close to that.

I get the RP/lore of having this be a thing... but really it should probably be turned off in options by default.

Unfortunately there is a limited number of game options, and adding more requires a DLL change. I don't think Tholal added any new dummy options (or changed it so that I could add an arbitrary number with only xml) yet like I requested a long time ago, so making this wonder optional would require reusing one already in use for something else.

I may go ahead and make the construction of the Crucible reveal that city to everyone and place a landmark on the site reminding everyone that the Crucible is there.


Maybe the Crucible could have an AC requirement? Seems reasonably flavorful and could prevent it from taking over the late game regularly. Sezneg's point about the Sheim in particular still stands, but mass-rifting to the city with the Crucible could allow them to destroy it before it utterly wrecks them.

I was already already leaning towards this idea before you posted it. I don't want a prohibitively high prereq like that of Glory Everlasting (which I think I may reduce anyway), but requiring the AC be at least 10 or 20 seems reasonable.
 
35 or 40 should be fine.

Additionally, have you considered giving the creator some kind of hit? For instance, the creator is unable to create L3 spellcasters, or their arcane units have a chance of revolting (flipping to the barbs or an arcane civ). Or even slowing the rate their spellcasters gain xp.
 
35 or 40 should be fine.

Additionally, have you considered giving the creator some kind of hit? For instance, the creator is unable to create L3 spellcasters, or their arcane units have a chance of revolting (flipping to the barbs or an arcane civ). Or even slowing the rate their spellcasters gain xp.

Won't the creators mages suffer the same effect? That was my assumption, as the crucible would be indiscriminate about whose magic it siphons.

Oh, and just a by the way, when using the option for all unique features yesterday, i remembered that they all seemed to appear except the ring of carcer. I was using the Erebus continent mapscript, too. I've had this issue for a very long time, i seem to recall.
 
Won't the creators mages suffer the same effect? That was my assumption, as the crucible would be indiscriminate about whose magic it siphons.

Oh, and just a by the way, when using the option for all unique features yesterday, i remembered that they all seemed to appear except the ring of carcer. I was using the Erebus continent mapscript, too. I've had this issue for a very long time, i seem to recall.

Yes it will, but I'm saying the creator should get more of a disadvantage magic wise. Archmages wouldn't be happy about their nation creating a large wonder that undermines their magical powers.


I play Erebus continents with all unique features as well, but I get the ring of carcer every time. You sure it isn't in some remote arctic tile? (Or maybe somebody has already freed her).
 
An AC of 35 or 40 seems much too high a prereq to me, as the counter is highly volatile at such levels and it would be really annoying to have progress on an expensive wonder halt due to momentarily dropping below the threshold. I think AC 20 is acceptable, 25 at the very most.

I'd be ok with making the Crucible remove Channeling 3 from all units stationed in the city, as that is a simple xml effect. I don't feel like handicapping the owner of the wonder more than other players in all cities though. (Technically this change wouldn't handicap the owner but rather anyone who leaves an archmage in such a city at the end of a turn.)

I was thinking of making it grant the Magic Resistance promotion to all units in the city, but I think it might be more elegant to instead make it increase the chance of your units resisting enemy spells and vice versa.

I had already written code to remove Channeling 2 from new arcane units without Channeling 3 and Channeling 1 from such units without Channeling 2 so long as the Crucible exits. I'd rather only have that kick in once all the mana is gone or after the wonder is past a certain age, but that would be too inefficient to check for something called that frequently.
 
i do feel that the effect of the Crucible on basic mana and nodes should be permanent rather than temporary. It makes UF more valuable ( as owners would get an edge in a post-Crucible world), though i agree it might be overkill.

Another thing would be to have Rites of Oghma blocked while the Crucible is active. (the two are a bit of an opposite effect)
 
Ok I'm pretty sure I'm getting a lot of war weariness due to fireballs dying.. surely this isn't intended?
I don't think it should work like that, but if it does that is more an issue for Tholal than for me.
i do feel that the effect of the Crucible on basic mana and nodes should be permanent rather than temporary. It makes UF more valuable ( as owners would get an edge in a post-Crucible world), though i agree it might be overkill.

The inability to replace the random creation mana might make that problematic.

I was originally thinking of making the loss permanent, but now that I have the temp bonus mechanic working perfectly to bring them back I'm leaning towards doing so.

(Making sure that Bradeline's Well provides the proper bonus was the main incentive for coding it this way, as the improvement could grant either death or creation depending on whether it was sealed or unsealed.)

(Getting the proper amount of mana from buildings to be restored was a much bigger hassle. I thought I had it working a couple days ago, but when I tested the razing of the wonder before it had depleted the mana sources entirely I found additional mana created. I think I have it working correctly now though.)

I think I may stop the node improvements from returning though, so you have to take time to build those again.
Another thing would be to have Rites of Oghma blocked while the Crucible is active. (the two are a bit of an opposite effect)

I was actually thinking about making the Crucible block the completion of any rituals, as most represent magical spells so strong that it takes more than one caster to channel the mana needed to power them.

(Purge of the Unfaithful and Pact of the Nilhorn may be exceptions to that rule, and Glory Everlasting may fit well enough with the Crucible thematically, but it would be easier to code and explain if it just blocked all of them.)

The wonder would then become a defense against further Infernal incursions and against Auric's Ascension.



(It would have changed things in my current game, where the AI is doing remarkably well. Decius of the Calabim summoned 3 Demon Lords and convinced the 2 stronger of them to become his vassals. Together they conquered almost half the world, before Decius completed the Crucible. I'm playing as Tebryn Arbandi and was already having trouble holding their forces off while starting construction of the Tower of Mastery. Naturally I expected the loss of mana to be a major problem soon, but shortly after losing my first mana source I was surprised to see a bigger threat emerge; Auric unexpectedly completed his Ascension, just in time to stop Hyborem from capturing his capital city. He had received zero help from me to do that. I'd even made some efforts earlier in the game to assassinate Auric Ulvin the unit, but he kept getting away. I guess giving Auric a withdrawal chance second only to Loki's makes him a much bigger threat. Earlier in this game Braeden the Laconic completed The White Hand to introduce Auric to the world, and then went to war with him and lost cities that were liberated to form puppet states under the control of Dumannios and Anagantios. Braeden and Auric eventually reconciled and formed a permanent alliance to reunite the Illian nation, and together completed all of the spells of winter.)
 
I don't think it should work like that, but if it does that is more an issue for Tholal than for me.

Alright then I'll bring it up with him. IIRC in vanilla FFH2 fireballs and other "not alive" units had a "death does not cause war weariness" tag.

Although, does war weariness depend on war length as well? Like I've been at war with some players for a long time (150 turns about) but most of it had no fighting. Even when I have been fighting, I've hardly lost any units (except fireballs) but some of my cities are showing +13:mad: due to WW. I'll check the exact number of units I lost in a bit.
EDIT: I've lost 29 human units in the entire game (including scouts and warriors, so some of them arent even tied to my ongoing war), around 20 golems and 256 fireballs.

I was actually thinking about making the Crucible block the completion of any rituals, as most represent magical spells so strong that it takes more than one caster to channel the mana needed to power them.

(Purge of the Unfaithful and Pact of the Nilhorn may be exceptions to that rule, and Glory Everlasting may fit well enough with the Crucible thematically, but it would be easier to code and explain if it just blocked all of them.)

The wonder would then become a defense against further Infernal incursions and against Auric's Ascension.

I'd prefer making rituals harder instead of putright diasbling them outright. Making them more expensive slowly after the tower is built might be a good idea, since some rituals anyway cost a lot of :hammers:. You could also remove the double production speed that mana gives some rituals (although that will be removed automatically a while later when mana starts disappearing).

Also, does the Crucible have a place in the lore?

(It would have changed things in my current game, where the AI is doing remarkably well. Decius of the Calabim summoned 3 Demon Lords and convinced the 2 stronger of them to become his vassals. Together they conquered almost half the world, before Decius completed the Crucible. I'm playing as Tebryn Arbandi and was already having trouble holding their forces off while starting construction of the Tower of Mastery. Naturally I expected the loss of mana to be a major problem soon, but shortly after losing my first mana source I was surprised to see a bigger threat emerge; Auric unexpectedly completed his Ascension, just in time to stop Hyborem from capturing his capital city. He had received zero help from me to do that. I'd even made some efforts earlier in the game to assassinate Auric Ulvin the unit, but he kept getting away. I guess giving Auric a withdrawal chance second only to Loki's makes him a much bigger threat. Earlier in this game Braeden the Laconic completed The White Hand to introduce Auric to the world, and then went to war with him and lost cities that were liberated to form puppet states under the control of Dumannios and Anagantios. Braeden and Auric eventually reconciled and formed a permanent alliance to reunite the Illian nation, and together completed all of the spells of winter.)

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Wish my games were that epic! What difficulty is this?
Also, do you remember (approximately) around what time The White Hand and Ascension were completed in your game?
Because I was kinda disappointed with Auric in my game (Monarch). He took till about turn 290-300 (on standard speed) to complete the White Hand.
 
Alright then I'll bring it up with him. IIRC in vanilla FFH2 fireballs and other "not alive" units had a "death does not cause war weariness" tag.

Although, does war weariness depend on war length as well? Like I've been at war with some players for a long time (150 turns about) but most of it had no fighting. Even when I have been fighting, I've hardly lost any units (except fireballs) but some of my cities are showing +13:mad: due to WW. I'll check the exact number of units I lost in a bit.
EDIT: I've lost 29 human units in the entire game (including scouts and warriors, so some of them arent even tied to my ongoing war), around 20 golems and 256 fireballs.
I believe that War Weariness naturally increases the longer a war proceeds.

I was also under the impression that the death of summons in base FfH2 could lead to war weariness but that Tholal thought he already fixed that.
I'd prefer making rituals harder instead of putright diasbling them outright. Making them more expensive slowly after the tower is built might be a good idea, since some rituals anyway cost a lot of :hammers:. You could also remove the double production speed that mana gives some rituals (although that will be removed automatically a while later when mana starts disappearing).

GameUtils.py can adjust the costs of units and buildings, but it would take a DLL change to let me adjust the costs of rituals in python.

There is no way (short of a major DLL overhaul) to let python change what resources give production bonuses to rituals.

I could however remove :hammers: from projects currently in progress without too much trouble. It would require adding only 8 more lines of code (including one to inform the city owner what has happened) to the 254 lines currently used for the Crucible per turn effect.

It would be impossible to keep track of and restore that production for once the Crucible is destroyed, but I don't think that matters.

A bigger problem is that the AI would not understand why the rituals are not proceeding, and might keep trying to complete a ritual that cannot be finished and so remain unable to use a city for anything else.

It would however be trivially easy to make the Crucible block only AI players from building rituals.

Also, does the Crucible have a place in the lore?
Yes, although the information we have on it is scant and was first made public only about 2 weeks ago.
Derek "Kael" Paxton on the FfH2 Reddit said:
Embarr was reborn at the end of the Age of Rebirth, at the dawn of the Age of Invention. After the Fane of Lessers had been conquered and Basium marched his Mercurian army into hell to confront the demons directly.Within Judicium the Bannor forged the Crucible, which began drawing off the magic of the world and making spells more and more difficult to cast and man began to rely more on science. This is when Embarr's scattered pieces were brought back together, to bring the world steam power, medicine and astronomy.
:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Wish my games were that epic! What difficulty is this?
Also, do you remember (approximately) around what time The White Hand and Ascension were completed in your game?
Because I was kinda disappointed with Auric in my game (Monarch). He took till about turn 290-300 (on standard speed) to complete the White Hand.

This was on Diety, in a Quick game, on a Standard size map, with an Ancient starting era.

(I usually play at Prince, in a Quick Game, on a Small Map, with a Classical Start, but when I started my first game after the MNAI 2.7Beta4 merge it automatically went to those settings.)

I had to cheat a few times to survive this long. (Playing as the Sheaim also got a little more difficult because I decided to give the gate creatures tech prereqs, so I could not get a Mobius Witch to use mage level spells at Knowledge of the Ether anymore but had to wait for Sorcery.) First I granted myself the Octopus Overlords holy city, since I was irritated when an AI founded that religion only a couple turns before I could. The same thing happened with the Ashen Veil and Council of Esus later on. By the same logic I could have given myself the Museum of Maponos, but since I had Creation mana from the Bones of Eurabatres right next to my capital I decided to let the AI keep that. Then, I granted myself 100 turns of Sanctuary to prevent Arcturus Thornes' massive army of Trubuchets and Soldiers of Kilmorph from conquering me before I had even built my second city. After that I managed to go without cheating again until after using The Tower of Divination to gain Strength of Will and upgrading a Mobius Witch into an Eater of Dreams. At this point I had large Khazad and Illian armies next to my capital, and I decided to give my first Eater of Dreams all the available spell spheres and use worldbuilder to let him cast a couple dozen times without Consuming the Souls of everyone in my city. After clearing that threat I barely managed to go on without cheating for long enough to finish the Tower of Mastery.

I don't remember when The White Hand was completed, but I believe it was around the same time that The Council of Esus was founded. Ascension was finished on turn 340.
 
I had to cheat a few times to survive this long. (Playing as the Sheaim also got a little more difficult because I decided to give the gate creatures tech prereqs, so I could not get a Mobius Witch to use mage level spells at Knowledge of the Ether anymore but had to wait for Sorcery.)

Mobius are very well balanced though, I think you should allow yourself them as they normally are. They are controlled in numbers by how many cities with gates you have. Only way to reliably (but not foolproof) survive early game as Sheaim is to get these out. It does a good job of making ways of the wicked more pressing than education as slavery = best chance at getting the mage guild AND gate constructed with enough turns to allow the witches to spawn.

That early game stress is so much fun on the Sheaim. Defending 3-4 cities from multiple AI Axemen stack with a handful of warriors + a witch is one of the more fun tactical situations you get int he mod.
 
The fact that I have to readjust my settings every time I switch between Magistermod and other mods or even unmodded BtS remains annoying.

I think I might have discovered two bugs:

First, somehow I can offer an AI to make peace with and declare war on the same civ it is currently at war with.

Secondly, the yield modifiers from Temple of the Hand seem to be applied pretty inconsistently. In the same turn two cities with the same buildings with the same resources have different modifiers for food, production and I assume commerce. Maybe the numbers got messed up when when I lost connection to some of my cities because I declared war on the Luchuirp which were in the middle of my expanding empire. I assume that yield modifiers for resources now get added several times if you have several instances of the same resource?

The food carryover from Temple of the Hand is ridiculous, pretty much all my cities grow another population point every single turn because so much food is carried over from growth. While storing more food is thematically appropriate for the Illians, I suggest removing the food modifier from Ice Mana for the Temple of the Hand. What might also work would be changing the Illians' unique trait of giving 2 Food to every ice tile to 1 Food 1 Hammer instead, or maybe even just 1 Food. While it's true that if anyone could gain something from working snow it's the Illians, it doesn't make sense that snow yields just as much food as grassland for them. Imo the lack of food should be a trade off which is balanced by the extra storage from the Temple and the defensive bonus.
 

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Mobius are very well balanced though, I think you should allow yourself them as they normally are. They are controlled in numbers by how many cities with gates you have. Only way to reliably (but not foolproof) survive early game as Sheaim is to get these out. It does a good job of making ways of the wicked more pressing than education as slavery = best chance at getting the mage guild AND gate constructed with enough turns to allow the witches to spawn.

That early game stress is so much fun on the Sheaim. Defending 3-4 cities from multiple AI Axemen stack with a handful of warriors + a witch is one of the more fun tactical situations you get int he mod.

Well, I don't know. I sometimes find Mobius Witches overpowered, not so much for their offensive or defensive capabilities as for spells like Fertility that let the cities develop faster and make a big difference in the long run.

There are several ways I could address this.

I could split the difference and make them require Necromancy or something, although at that point you might as well start pumping out Pyre Zombies.

I could go back to how they worked in Base FfH2, where they start at level 4 and have a few random promotions rather than starting at level 1 and getting enough free xp based on the AC to purchase multiple promotions at once.

Another idea that is starting to grow on me would be to make them equivalent not to Mages but rather Adepts with Unholy Taint. That would allow them to cast any first tier spell but only second tier spells in the evil mana spheres, the same ones that Ritualists can access. They could still cast Fireball or summon Chaos Marauder, but not Hope or Creation. The promotion would also let them summon imps, make all their summons demonic, and slowly start spreading hell terrain. Rather than Eaters of Dreams or Profanes, they could be allowed up upgrade to Mages and Ritualists.


The fact that I have to readjust my settings every time I switch between Magistermod and other mods or even unmodded BtS remains annoying.
I believe you are complaining about something caused by the Nuclear Dissuaion option that came with MNAIv2.7Beta3. It was removed with MNAIv2.7Beta4, which will be included in my next update, so the problem should be solved already.
I think I might have discovered two bugs:

First, somehow I can offer an AI to make peace with and declare war on the same civ it is currently at war with.
Diplomacy like that is entirely handled in code that I have not touched, but only borrowed from Tholal. You may want to take it up with him, if it is not already fixed in the next version.

If you don't have multiple players of the same name in the game, I'd guess that maybe Jonas is not at war with Beeri yet but is preparing for war. Maybe it lets you bribe him to cancel those plans? I don't really know.
Secondly, the yield modifiers from Temple of the Hand seem to be applied pretty inconsistently. In the same turn two cities with the same buildings with the same resources have different modifiers for food, production and I assume commerce. Maybe the numbers got messed up when when I lost connection to some of my cities because I declared war on the Luchuirp which were in the middle of my expanding empire. I assume that yield modifiers for resources now get added several times if you have several instances of the same resource?

The food carryover from Temple of the Hand is ridiculous, pretty much all my cities grow another population point every single turn because so much food is carried over from growth. While storing more food is thematically appropriate for the Illians, I suggest removing the food modifier from Ice Mana for the Temple of the Hand. What might also work would be changing the Illians' unique trait of giving 2 Food to every ice tile to 1 Food 1 Hammer instead, or maybe even just 1 Food. While it's true that if anyone could gain something from working snow it's the Illians, it doesn't make sense that snow yields just as much food as grassland for them. Imo the lack of food should be a trade off which is balanced by the extra storage from the Temple and the defensive bonus.
I'm not really sure what is going on either.

Maybe some bonus's are due to the Mulcarn Constellation event, which boosts the temples. I'm not sure if it applies only to those already built or also those built later.

I just reduced the food stored from 75% to 60% and the yield modifier from +20% to 10%.

I'll see about the Snow yields, although I imagine it would take multiple games to make sure it is balanced ok and could postpone the next update's release date.



I think that bonus modifiers for multiple sources of a resource are applied only if the resource is marked as bMana, but I don't really recall.
 
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