Making a new Magic System Part II: Spells
- Thread starter Sephi
- Start date
First off, wow. This is incredible work you've done here. Great system. Can't wait to see it. in some way or another in RiFE or Orbis. Makes me want to learn python so I can help out in any way whatsoever.
Adjective tiles? Don't you mean adjacent?
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
We've already announced our own plans for RifE, blade117. http://greyfox.me/rife/blog/2010/08/05/magic-revisited/
The fact that both systems are fairly similar is coincidence; Both plans were developed around the same time, with neither side knowing about the other.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
I never said there was, did I? All I meant to say was that WM's implementation didn't inspire ours, they developed in parallel.
I know the version in RifE was not directly inspired by MoM (I never played it), but I have said on several occasions that it was inspired by ideas in the Fall Further team forum, which were themselves likely inspired by MoM.
Really, the core differences between the two systems are: A) Summons. B) The way spells are arranged. C) Spell Research.
For A, we just dislike the idea of summons being separated from casters. We prefer the willpower implementation; Up to the players as to which they prefer.
For B, we stuck to the FfH setup rather than change it. We try to do that where possible.
For C, we thought about it, and are still thinking about it (plans dating back over a year for several different types of tech tree), but would want to make sure new trees can be added at will. Not sure we want to commit to that amount of work.
I know the version in RifE was not directly inspired by MoM (I never played it), but I have said on several occasions that it was inspired by ideas in the Fall Further team forum, which were themselves likely inspired by MoM.
Really, the core differences between the two systems are: A) Summons. B) The way spells are arranged. C) Spell Research.
For A, we just dislike the idea of summons being separated from casters. We prefer the willpower implementation; Up to the players as to which they prefer.
For B, we stuck to the FfH setup rather than change it. We try to do that where possible.
For C, we thought about it, and are still thinking about it (plans dating back over a year for several different types of tech tree), but would want to make sure new trees can be added at will. Not sure we want to commit to that amount of work.
yes but the next thing will look more like fire: kaboom baby
Spoiler :
basically this is the new fireball. sephi wanted to implement that the animation is always rotated, so that the fireball comes from the tile of the caster. in this screenshot series the rotation is still random so here the fireball comes from an empty tile. but i guess you get the idea
Attachments
TheChanger
Warlord
that looks cool! though i agree it should come from the tile the caster is on 
Quetz
The Tallest Lilliputian
Just a random thought inspired by playing Dominions 3. Has anyone considered Blood Magic at all? In that game it's the most evil you can get, and to cast any of the spells you have to collect virgin "Blood Slaves" to sacrifice to power them from your/enemy provinces, with the amount of slaves required rising signifigantly depending on the power of the spell. I imagine something like that could fit pretty well in FFH for a number of different civs (calabim, doviello, lizardmen, etc) and the whole slave thing could be easily replicated via promotions.
Another random thought: I really like the spell spheres in that game (fire, water, earth, air, astral, blood, nature/life, death)... Despite there being only 8, it still has around 10x more spells than FFH. I personally think the mod would benefit from maybe instead of having 25 different spell spheres, merging some of the FFH mana types to fit into a similar, smaller selection of spheres. Like Fire/Sun/Chaos, Water/Ice/Whatever, Metamagic/dimensional/force for astral, etc... Haven't read through recent plans though, so could be you're doing something like that already.
Another random thought: I really like the spell spheres in that game (fire, water, earth, air, astral, blood, nature/life, death)... Despite there being only 8, it still has around 10x more spells than FFH. I personally think the mod would benefit from maybe instead of having 25 different spell spheres, merging some of the FFH mana types to fit into a similar, smaller selection of spheres. Like Fire/Sun/Chaos, Water/Ice/Whatever, Metamagic/dimensional/force for astral, etc... Haven't read through recent plans though, so could be you're doing something like that already.
i am not sure that sephi wants to have an overkill of spells. yes we could implement hundreds of spells easily, but then they would all be interchangeable leaving no real distinction to each spell sphere. why would you want 20 different damage spells for example? however if you have specific spells in mind that are fairly unique feel free to post them 
edit: i am looking at dominions 3 wiki now, maybe we could steal some spell ideas.
edit: i am looking at dominions 3 wiki now, maybe we could steal some spell ideas.
Quetz
The Tallest Lilliputian
Well, that's true enough, since obviously Civ is rather limited as a spell-based wargame. I was referring to taking existing spells (and whatever new ones you guys come up with, the new vfx look cool already) and combining them into fewer, but longer, spheres, rather than making 10 new spells for each sphere that exists already, though. I just think it would make for a cleaner, more sensical system, though it wouldn't fit with FFH lore as well as the current system.
But you can't go wrong getting ideas from Dom and AoW. Both have great spells - though Dom's are made a bit more interesting by that game's permanent affliction system, such as chest wounds, burns, and lost limbs, that would be impossible/aggravating to implement in Civ. I'll post some of my fav's anyways though when I wake up, maybe some neat ideas there
Are you guys making new Rituals/Global Enchantments, too?
Edit: This is just another random idea, and not a spell - but I'm suggesting it anyways because I dont know how WM's mana system is going to work yet. Assuming the current spammable spells are staying (and maybe even if they aren't) something I've wished for in FFH for a long time are tiered Fatigue/Casted promos (whatever the "has casted" promo is called.) So, for example, casting a level 1 spell would cause Fatigue (1/2 combat str, cannot cast) for 1 turn, while casting a level 3 spell would fatigue the caster for 3 turns, etc. This would be mainly to prevent the current "walk a lone archmage into the AI territory and meganuke everything every turn till you win" strategy, and add a bit of thought to how mages are used, since they would have to be defended during the recovery turns with weakened attack/def. It would also open the way for new caster promos such as "Can cast level 1 spells without becoming fatigued" at high levels, for example, and units like Firebows could be exempt.
But you can't go wrong getting ideas from Dom and AoW. Both have great spells - though Dom's are made a bit more interesting by that game's permanent affliction system, such as chest wounds, burns, and lost limbs, that would be impossible/aggravating to implement in Civ. I'll post some of my fav's anyways though when I wake up, maybe some neat ideas there
Are you guys making new Rituals/Global Enchantments, too?
Edit: This is just another random idea, and not a spell - but I'm suggesting it anyways because I dont know how WM's mana system is going to work yet. Assuming the current spammable spells are staying (and maybe even if they aren't) something I've wished for in FFH for a long time are tiered Fatigue/Casted promos (whatever the "has casted" promo is called.) So, for example, casting a level 1 spell would cause Fatigue (1/2 combat str, cannot cast) for 1 turn, while casting a level 3 spell would fatigue the caster for 3 turns, etc. This would be mainly to prevent the current "walk a lone archmage into the AI territory and meganuke everything every turn till you win" strategy, and add a bit of thought to how mages are used, since they would have to be defended during the recovery turns with weakened attack/def. It would also open the way for new caster promos such as "Can cast level 1 spells without becoming fatigued" at high levels, for example, and units like Firebows could be exempt.
Global enchantments, yes.
Spell spam is pretty much impossible now, due to mana system. I guess you could do it for limited amount of time if you conserve all your mana for it. Mages work differently anyway. The spellphere thingie... well, kinda works like you described although there are even more mana types but ... errmm... wait and see! Magic system is still far from finished so i don't want to go into specifics. You are welcome to join the beta and see for yourself :O
Dom is great game, but don't think most of the spells would work in civ-system. New spell ideas should still be welcome, i believe.
Spell spam is pretty much impossible now, due to mana system. I guess you could do it for limited amount of time if you conserve all your mana for it. Mages work differently anyway. The spellphere thingie... well, kinda works like you described although there are even more mana types but ... errmm... wait and see! Magic system is still far from finished so i don't want to go into specifics. You are welcome to join the beta and see for yourself :O
Dom is great game, but don't think most of the spells would work in civ-system. New spell ideas should still be welcome, i believe.
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