Making exploration better

AffineConstant

Warlord
Joined
Sep 25, 2022
Messages
132
Exploration in the initial game is one of the best parts. But it could be made better. Right?

I've seen the idea of "wild animals" (maybe one per continent, bears, lions, tigers, uhm, snakes in south america type?) being brought back. This could be a hazard not only to unprotected civilian units, but to scouts as well.

But further can pushed. Storms were introduced with Gathering Storm, why not bring them back for the base game? And instead of just damaging units they'd be dangerous enough to outright kill early recon units, which happened all the time anyway. If you can see them on the map you can try and route around them, but then you're not going where you want, and you really have to pay attention to all your recon units in the early game.

Same goes with ships on the ocean, ships used to sink more often than not. You could make a fortune in trading in part because the risk was so high you'd never come back. Early ships, even ocean going ones like caravels, might be sunk by large enough storms.

Speaking of, lastly, if the map could go from the weird strip like geometry back to an actual sphere (which would be a neat trick) you could have "circumnavigate the globe" type accomplishments for being the first to reach the north and south poles. Maybe the storms get super bad, or even on ice terrain your unit loses hitpoints each hex it moves. But the reward is worth it.

This could make the obvious rewards of exploration harder to get to, but also funner and more interesting to get to.
 
There's a big overlap between the role that barbarians play and what you describe wild animals would.

I disagree that natural disasters that one-shot your scouts make the game more fun. All you need to do is look at rock bands. Is it fun that there's a good chance your expensive and perhaps even highly promoted rock band dies with a single click due to something you have almost no control of?
 
"Sink more often than not" is a ridiculously gross overestimation of how likely ships were to sink - while we lack precise numbers obviously estimates by experts put the shiprwrecks-to-ship ratio in the Ancient Era in the single digits, a far cry from the above 50% you imply.
 
Classical Rome and Athens were both largely supplied with food by ship. If they had been as prone to sinking as you imagine neither city would have survived with more than 10 - 20,000 population (what was suppliable from the local countryside within a day's cart ride from the city). Instead, Rome hit 1,000,000 by the early Empire, with a steady stram of large freighters carrying grain across the Mediterranean from North Africa and Egypt. The Athens trade route for grain ran through the Dardenelles, the Black Sea, to the Crimea, an even longer route.

Athens, by the way, also had shipping insurance about 1500 years before Lloyds of London got started: groups of investors would guarantee the value of the cargo and repay the ship owner if it was lost. This would not have been financially possible if most of the ships were never making port!

As the modern super tankers and cruise ships have shown, there is no ship no matter how big that there isn't a storm big enough to damage or sink it. That does not mean that ship's crews for the past 5000 years haven't learned how to stay out of the way of Big Storms for the great majority of their voyages.

And the meme that 'wild animals' or weather can kill off groups of people belongs largely long before the game ever starts: humans have been the apex predators everywhere they go on earth for at least the last 100,000 years, and humans have been inhabiting the most hostile environments (like Glacial Era high latitudes) since at least Homo Sapiens Neanderthalsis: it is no accident that one of the earliest types of artifacts associated with humans is needles - because they were sewing together clothing to protect themselves against weather events. The 'caveman' wearing a fur loin cloth and nothing else is a Myth only and slightly accurate for a tropical environment: elsewhere, people wore what was appropriate to the climate and knew how to manufacture protective gear for thousands of years before any reasonable date for Start of Game.
 
^ So 'Warrior' with this kind of leather vest at the game star is historically accurate?
 
I don’t really want to fight animals in this series. I am glad Civ has moved away from it.
 
^ So 'Warrior' with this kind of leather vest at the game star is historically accurate?
The earliest detailed depictions of warriors (and hunters) are from about 3000 BCE in Egypt and the Levant/Syria area. They show two types:
A man armed with a stone-headed mace and javelins but no shield or body armor, just a leather/cloth kilt.
A man armed with a long spear with a distinctive flaked stone point, an oval shield of leather stretched over a wooden frame, a helmet of padded cloth, and a kilt.

Neither show body armor other than the shield, but the kilts could have been of leather or other protective material. Both are just prior (by about 500 years) of the first bronze applications to weapons and armor, so have no metal armor or equipment. That means their stone, animal and plant product 'equipment' is probably pretty accurate for thousands of years prior to the date of the illustrations.

The earliest archers, by the way, are from a cave painting dated to sometime between 6000 and 9000 BCE, but only shows men with bows firing at other men - so, a battlefield as well as a hunting weapon - but without enough detail to say anything about how the archers were dressed or equipped.

This illustrative evidence makes the 'warrior' and the 'archer' both Pre-Start of Game units. The Spearman and his 'anti-cavalry' bonus as depicted in the game is a bit later: the first illustration of a massed spear 'phalanx' is from Sumer about 2600 BCE, when the first 'war carts' or mounted units also appear (by no accident, we can be pretty sure). Before that, the spear seems to have been simply an individual weapon to keep animals and human enemies a further distance away from you rather than a weapon that gains new utility from being massed.
 
I actually think recon units should be the only units that can reveal the map. Cartography is not a skill I expect my band of warriors to possess. Then make the recon units civilians (like workers) to add more risk. From a gameplay perspective it makes the role of a recon unit distinct from cavalry (that otherwise do the recon lines job better).
 
Cartography is not a skill that's necessary to exploration, either. People were able and had ways to communicate complex geographic knowledge long before any sort of specialized mapmaking, and crude mapmaking require no particular expertise or skill.

Sure, the way they communicated that information may seem inefficient compared to modern maps, but that doesn't mean it didn't generally work.
 
We tend to forget that the start of game 'scout' unit is largely Fantasy. Early 'scouting' or looking for new places was usually by traders looking for markets or hunters following game, not dedicated reconnaissance groups. It's a useful fiction in game-terms (I am NOT suggesting they do away with it) but to debate what their cartographic talents were is completely irrelevant until much later in the game, when organized governments did send out scouts or spies (frequently using the same word to describe both functions).

The classical era Greek and Roman 'geographers' writing travel guides, like Strabo and his contemporaries and copiers, make no secret that much of their knowledge of strange and foreign places came from merchants, traders, sailors, and military men who had actually gone to those places, frequently supplemented by their own eyewitness accounts from traveling there themselves. Dedicated 'scouts' or spies' testimony is conspicuosly absent from all of their accounts.
 
I don’t really want to fight animals in this series. I am glad Civ has moved away from it.
If Civ ended up with a Neolithic/Nomadic era I could see the possibility of using units for "hunting" certain animals. But other than that, I agree.
 
The earliest detailed depictions of warriors (and hunters) are from about 3000 BCE in Egypt and the Levant/Syria area. They show two types:
A man armed with a stone-headed mace and javelins but no shield or body armor, just a leather/cloth kilt.
A man armed with a long spear with a distinctive flaked stone point, an oval shield of leather stretched over a wooden frame, a helmet of padded cloth, and a kilt.

Neither show body armor other than the shield, but the kilts could have been of leather or other protective material. Both are just prior (by about 500 years) of the first bronze applications to weapons and armor, so have no metal armor or equipment. That means their stone, animal and plant product 'equipment' is probably pretty accurate for thousands of years prior to the date of the illustrations.

The earliest archers, by the way, are from a cave painting dated to sometime between 6000 and 9000 BCE, but only shows men with bows firing at other men - so, a battlefield as well as a hunting weapon - but without enough detail to say anything about how the archers were dressed or equipped.

This illustrative evidence makes the 'warrior' and the 'archer' both Pre-Start of Game units. The Spearman and his 'anti-cavalry' bonus as depicted in the game is a bit later: the first illustration of a massed spear 'phalanx' is from Sumer about 2600 BCE, when the first 'war carts' or mounted units also appear (by no accident, we can be pretty sure). Before that, the spear seems to have been simply an individual weapon to keep animals and human enemies a further distance away from you rather than a weapon that gains new utility from being massed.

I would love a longer early game. Start at the "dawn" of history, then move into the "metal(?) age" (look there was bronze then iron but, whatever) and only then get to "classical/helenistic". There was an absolute ton of history in between the earliest attempts at farming and settling and cattle grazing and then the classic empires rising. And yeah archers should definitely be a starting thing right alongside "warrior" historically. But then you have to explain maybe why one archer unit has a range of 1 while another has a range of 2 before crossbowmen come along much later or something, so I get it.
 
There's a big overlap between the role that barbarians play and what you describe wild animals would.

I disagree that natural disasters that one-shot your scouts make the game more fun. All you need to do is look at rock bands. Is it fun that there's a good chance your expensive and perhaps even highly promoted rock band dies with a single click due to something you have almost no control of?
This is why I'm suggesting storms need to be visible a long way off so you can route around them. This means you have full control over whether they live or die, gives you tradeoffs (stronger units can go through storms but have less sight/movement), and means you have to pay attention to exactly where they're going each and every turn, instead of just kind of moving it to the back of your mind going "ok whatever go here I guess".
 
We tend to forget that the start of game 'scout' unit is largely Fantasy. Early 'scouting' or looking for new places was usually by traders looking for markets or hunters following game, not dedicated reconnaissance groups. It's a useful fiction in game-terms (I am NOT suggesting they do away with it) but to debate what their cartographic talents were is completely irrelevant until much later in the game, when organized governments did send out scouts or spies (frequently using the same word to describe both functions).

The classical era Greek and Roman 'geographers' writing travel guides, like Strabo and his contemporaries and copiers, make no secret that much of their knowledge of strange and foreign places came from merchants, traders, sailors, and military men who had actually gone to those places, frequently supplemented by their own eyewitness accounts from traveling there themselves. Dedicated 'scouts' or spies' testimony is conspicuosly absent from all of their accounts.
EVEN SO.

1. In all 4X games (that USUALLY Begins with Unrevealed black shroud, and since Warcraft II, semi revealed Fog of War which no troops movement is visible if no unit posted in that position) Sccouting comes first.
But
Scouting done first with 'lightfoot' without getting horse (or other tamable fastmoving animals)???? in Age of Empires series (especially the 4), scout is mounted, fast and agile unit with highest visibility but very weak combat capability, also a different unit to 'Light Cavalry' (Horsemen particularly, note that in that game the term 'Horseman' is still used to describe light lancers with the same visibility as Heavy Cavalry (Knights and equivalents) ).
2. In the Republic of Rome, there's a mounted element called 'Exploratores' which are essentially military scouts (and came from Equites caste)
3. With rigid class systems. Scouting and Commandoes are related. like this
Scout -> Skirmisher (A kind of archer heavily inspired by Robin Hood and his Merrymen, though Forrester is more descriptive (Precursor to modern National Park Ranger Patrols, preventing unauthorized huntings within assigned area) but it doesn't work well with those in the Dry Wastelands, Desert or Prairie men) -> Ranger (Inspired by American Frontiersmen, both French Courier de Bois and American Goldrush Era Wildwest Pioneers and later Cowboys, wore either slouch hat or two kind of furcaps (one with tails, and other is famous for being Maetel's signature headdress (Leiji Matsumoto's Galaxy Express 999, and its spinoffs).
ernm.
What should it be reworked?
While normally 'Explorer' (Civ2-4) is a natural successor to Scouts. but they are used exclusively ..... based on Eurocentric History.... in what by then dubbed in Latin as Terra Incognita . I'm not sure if this is a better part if Scout evolutionary lineage if placed in between Forrester and Ranger (or Chasseur a Pied), or replacing Forrester completely.

Should Scouting instead becomes 'active' ability of a 'unit' (or 'Army') that requires player to activate (with some cashes must be paid to use)?
 
This is why I'm suggesting storms need to be visible a long way off so you can route around them. This means you have full control over whether they live or die, gives you tradeoffs (stronger units can go through storms but have less sight/movement), and means you have to pay attention to exactly where they're going each and every turn, instead of just kind of moving it to the back of your mind going "ok whatever go here I guess".
There's already an interesting tradeoff between producing a scout vs. a slinger or a warrior. I open most games with two scouts because they help me secure the first golden age easily, but some people open with a slinger because they believe the protection a more combat-oriented unit provides is more valuable.

Also, I don't even think the problem you're trying to solve even really exists. I pay careful attention to how I move my scouts to maximize map vision, at least in the early game. If I need another unit later in the game for more scouting, I don't get another scout because they're more likely to die to rogue barbarians, which I expect to be stronger than in the early game, and because it's slower than horseman, which I can get instead. People move around scouts willy nilly later in the game not because they don't think scouts can die, but because they don't expect much value from further exploration.
 
To make exploration more interesting, I'd focus on spreading out the rewards of exploration over a longer period of time and making late-game rewards more appealing. The number one cause of exploration becoming less and less fun as the game goes on is that non-Pangaea maps are boring. Pangaea itself is a boring map that allows you to obtain most of the rewards of exploration in the early game. Nevertheless, Pangaea is still more fun than naval maps where you're cooped up early game because there's not enough land to explore. Not only is the game less fun in the early early game because you can't explore much, it's less fun in the late early game. Low exploration in the Ancient era usually means dark or normal age in the Classical era, which means you're missing out on the Monumentality golden age bonus. That slows down your game significantly, and you'll be spending even longer than otherwise before the game opens up and allows you to finally do the things you want to do.

One way to making naval maps more fun is to rework the whole golden/normal/dark age aspect of the game. Instead of rewarding players for entering golden ages and punishing them for failing to do so, different flavours should be available for different age types. Mutehsem Suleiman's bonuses (in the absence of normal age bonuses) are a good example of what I'd like to see. In a golden age, you're encouraged to develop your cities (+15% science & culture). In a normal or dark age, you're encouraged to flip the game on its head by taking what others have (+4 combat strength). There's a good enough balance between the two bonuses that it warrants a serious strategic consideration to decide what age type you should aim for in each era.

There should also be less emphasis on scouting as a way of getting era score and more emphasis on other methods. On a standard Pangaea map, with two scouts, you can feasibly get 5 points from tribal villages and meet 4 other players for a total of 9 points. Discover a natural wonder, and it's as high as 12 points. You'd be extremely lucky, however, if you can build two splendid districts in the ancient era for a total of 6 points. I don't really see why there has to be such huge discrepancy, given that scouting provides a lot of value outside of era score. It could also be interesting to have a system with multiple types of era score, and in order to unlock a specific type of bonus for the next era, the player needs to collect sufficient points of the corresponding type. For example, if you want bonus to science & culture per turn like golden-age Suleiman, you have to get "Development" era points by building districts and buildings. Defeat units and destroy barbarian camps and you get "Combat" era points and potentially unlock bonus towards combat in the next era. If you're able to get enough points for both, you get both bonuses (might be busted, but Civ 6 has heroic age, which is similar). You can also get points from scouting, but it'd be one of the following:

- There's a separate type of era score you can get for scouting
- You can get different types of era score for different scouting events
- Scouting yields "Wildcard" points, which can count toward whatever type of era score you want

Another thing that would make naval maps more appealing is to make maps bigger. The more tiles there are, the more land tiles there will be, and the more things to do even on a map like Small Continents. Right now, with two scouts, you can more or less map out your home continent in the ancient era on a Continents map. I'd like to see map sizes grow to at least make Continents, instead of Pangaea, the gold standard, so that there's still scouting to be done on the home continent beyond the ancient era. Obviously, there are some serious complications to increasing the map size. The game changes significantly even when you just play on a Highlands map instead of Pangaea. There are more barbarian problems, the AI tends to fight less because there's more land for everyone, and the map doesn't fill up even in the late game. There will have to be a lot of other adjustments for this to be possible. I can't find the post now, but I made a suggestion a while ago of implementing a pre-settlement era, allowing the settler unit to act as a walking city of sort and removing the scout unit and the first warrior. This unit wouldn't be able to move fast like the scout, which means the map doesn't actually need to be upscaled as much. Barbarians would make no sense in this context, so they'd be removed as well (they can appear later in the game after players have settled down). I actually like wild animals in this context, because they can actually fill the gap left by barbarians, but I don't want them to try to kill the player. Instead, the player can choose to attack the animals with the settler unit for rewards. Obviously, there'd be risk associated with this, as losing a battle could mean losing population. At the very least, though, you'll never be embroiled in unwanted combat at that stage of the game.

Last but not least, the naval game needs to be improved. Naval game is just too boring. On land, there are features that affect movement and combat strength. Aside from getting +3 strength on coral reef, there's nothing of the sort in the water. Land units can enter water. Naval units can't go on land or even cross land through a river. Making rivers navigable is something a lot of people have suggested. To make naval combat even more interesting, a wind system can be introduced. Each tile will have a wind direction attribute, and the movement cost of a boat depends on the wind direction and the direction the boat wants to move. I understand that it's the dynamic between wind and current that determines this in real life, but this is complicated enough for the game. I'm choosing wind over current because it can also affect ranged attack strength both on land and water. I'm on the fence about this idea, though, because I'm generally not fond of micromanaging units.

Another thing that could help is to make long-distance naval travel more expensive and exclusive to actual naval units (embarked units can only travel long distances when accompanied by naval units), but make the rewards that can be obtained through long-distance navigation bigger. After a certain amount of time out of friendly territory, naval units should slowly lose health. Technological development can mitigate this, and certain civs like Portugal could also have access to this bonus earlier. I haven't yet thought about what sort of bonus would be appropriate, though, but it should be something that would be hard to obtain on a Pangaea map.
 
Units have to return to your homeland to confirm their findings. So a unit goes off exploring, anything they reveal becomes like something between fog and known, until they arrive back to your territory which makes those tiles known.

Also I always imagined traders with extra sight and knowledge of all cities within trade range would be a cool ability for Indonesia. But something like that could be extended to all.

Exploration in civ mostly only makes sense when there is space to build new cities on the map. I wouldn’t mind if we had to find like the unique animals/foods on each continent to give a food boost to all your cities. Could even put them in zoos and simulate the impact of humans on extinction.
 
On the time scale of the game, there is plenty of time for exploration units to send back messengers to your capital while they're exploring.

The mind-numbing micro management of having to constantly shuffle units back to your capital/territory in order to see what they've explored really does not appear valuable to the game.
 
Given the timescale of the game (1 year minimum turn, average turn about 15 - 18 years) some utterly unrealistic things have to be lived with. It's bad enough that a really successful Scout that made it all the way to the far end of the Pangaea continent has almost no chance of ever being Upgraded because it will take him almost as long to get back to friendly territory, and the return trip will be through and past legions of Coursers, Men-at-Arms and Crossbowmen. Breaks of the game.

Consider that the 'automatic' map and exploration information received instantly in the capital from Far Far Away is part of the invisible network of traders, entrepreneurs, geographers and 'tourist' like travelers that abounded throughout history since the Ancient Era, but don't have to be explicitly modeled because there general effects are.
 
Given the timescale of the game (1 year minimum turn, average turn about 15 - 18 years) some utterly unrealistic things have to be lived with. It's bad enough that a really successful Scout that made it all the way to the far end of the Pangaea continent has almost no chance of ever being Upgraded because it will take him almost as long to get back to friendly territory, and the return trip will be through and past legions of Coursers, Men-at-Arms and Crossbowmen. Breaks of the game.

Consider that the 'automatic' map and exploration information received instantly in the capital from Far Far Away is part of the invisible network of traders, entrepreneurs, geographers and 'tourist' like travelers that abounded throughout history since the Ancient Era, but don't have to be explicitly modeled because there general effects are.

The really challening part of game design is knowing when and what needs to be abstracted. This is an excellent example.

One way to put limits on units and make scouts have more vale is to have a supply line limit for military units (a certain number of movement points away from a friendly hex) that scouts are exempt from
 
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