Mansas Musa is More Difficult Now

[MarigoldRan]

But what about Cannada? Don't they have slow start? Before machinery?

They don't get attacked by the AIs so long as you send delegations.

 

[_hero_]

As you said yourself: no slow start with Cree or Maori. Also, directly countering the point you made earlier. Have run a dozen Mali games played up to t150. How they do is heavily map dependent, which makes them mediocre at best.

Every civ has circumstances where they aren't particularly strong. It is true that if Mali doesn't get a favorable start, they are weak. It is also true that if Mali has a favorable start they are arguably the strongest civ from midgame on.

Also, the game settings greatly influence the relative strength of civs. Massive maps with lots of room to expand favor the civs that don't thrive on early war but rather take time to get going, such as the Mali or Phoenicia.

 

[Deadly Dog]

I loaded up a save from my pre-patch Mali game which I remember as being a blast, and not too difficult to get moving. It's not a great case for Mali either way as I had lots in my favour - only one major civ close by to the south, and 3 CS separating the next civ to the north, and water east and west. Leaving a nice 18-tile desert with a wonder in it.

Settling with 3-4 tiles of desert in the inner ring was all it took, while working non-desert tiles. The food and faith boosts were very noticeable, the production malus soon wasn't obvious. 3 cities ended up sharing that desert, and all got HS and Segubas up in the Classical.

That said, since the patch, all my games have had me scratching my head about what to do about these barbarians. They are mad, derailing me from exploring and forcing more unit production than I want early game. They are messing up the AI even worse, razing cities in the Renaissance. Add the fact that on epic speed classical GA's are (compared to earlier) a wee bit harder, and I doubt I'll ever have a cakewalk with Mali again.

 

[RealHuhn]

That said, since the patch, all my games have had me scratching my head about what to do about these barbarians.

Warrior first is by far the best opening to counter early barbarians. If you heavily rely on a scout, you can also go scout -> warrior or warrior -> rushbuy a scout or scout -> switch to warrior/slinger in case you see an early barbarian scout etc.
On some maps they are an absolute pain though, especially with horses nearby. Every civ would struggle, not just Mali.

 

[Arraz]

Every civ has circumstances where they aren't particularly strong. It is true that if Mali doesn't get a favorable start, they are weak. It is also true that if Mali has a favorable start they are arguably the strongest civ from midgame on.

Also, the game settings greatly influence the relative strength of civs. Massive maps with lots of room to expand favor the civs that don't thrive on early war but rather take time to get going, such as the Mali or Phoenicia.

I disagree. Even with a favorable start, the Mali are far, far from the strongest civ. Just tried Mali with a very nice start. The empire wasnt well going till the medieval/renaissance. Even then, it wasnt much stronger than the other empires out there, despite me chaining golden ages.
You simply have too many things to get and so few resources... I never felt as poor as when I played Mali, simply because I never had enough money/faith to cover the spendings.

Spoiler Maybe I misplayed though? :

I picked the desert folklore pantheon + choral Music belief & the Wat as religious building. Every desert city was building a HS + Suguba asap. Every non desert city was focused on Campus + suguba). I was spending all my faith on settlers/markets. All my gold was spent on buildings. But neither my faith nor my money generation was enough to cover the respective spendings (compared to another civ).

On the other side, if the map is big enough, Phoenicia can basically keep expanding forever. Unlike many civs (cough Mali/Russia cough), it doesnt need a golden age to keep expanding (early golden ages just help keeping up on science) and the more cities you have, the quicker the expansion.
You then use your gazillion trade routes + some alliances to get more science/culture/prod than any other civ.
If you find a nice place to set a great zimbabwe it's jackpot. And, unlike Mali, you dont need that money for any use other than lighthouses & wars.

With the Mali, you might spend the whole game at peace and still loose, simply because you start feeling rich at around the industrial/modern era. The issue is that by that point, other civs will already be so close to achieving their victory conditions that it's already too late.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Warrior first is by far the best opening to counter early barbarians. If you heavily rely on a scout, you can also go scout -> warrior or warrior -> rushbuy a scout or scout -> switch to warrior/slinger in case you see an early barbarian scout etc.
On some maps they are an absolute pain though, especially with horses nearby. Every civ would struggle, not just Mali.

But unless you get religious settlements, Mali struggles unusually more than others due to production malus.

And if religious settlements is all you care about, Indonesia can get it just as quickly, too.

 

[_hero_]

I disagree. Even with a favorable start, the Mali are far, far from the strongest civ. Just tried Mali with a very nice start. The empire wasnt well going till the medieval/renaissance. Even then, it wasnt much stronger than the other empires out there, despite me chaining golden ages.
You simply have too many things to get and so few resources... I never felt as poor as when I played Mali, simply because I never had enough money/faith to cover the spendings.

Spoiler Maybe I misplayed though? :

I picked the desert folklore pantheon + choral Music belief & the Wat as religious building. Every desert city was building a HS + Suguba asap. Every non desert city was focused on Campus + suguba). I was spending all my faith on settlers/markets. All my gold was spent on buildings. But neither my faith nor my money generation was enough to cover the respective spendings (compared to another civ).

On the other side, if the map is big enough, Phoenicia can basically keep expanding forever. Unlike many civs (cough Mali/Russia cough), it doesnt need a golden age to keep expanding (early golden ages just help keeping up on science) and the more cities you have, the quicker the expansion.
You then use your gazillion trade routes + some alliances to get more science/culture/prod than any other civ.
If you find a nice place to set a great zimbabwe it's jackpot. And, unlike Mali, you dont need that money for any use other than lighthouses & wars.

With the Mali, you might spend the whole game at peace and still loose, simply because you start feeling rich at around the industrial/modern era. The issue is that by that point, other civs will already be so close to achieving their victory conditions that it's already too late.

Hmm. When I played Mali on a huge Earth map I ended up with around 30 cities I built myself and was getting over 5000 gold per turn and 1000 faith per turn when I finished the game. To be fair this was only on Emperor as I wanted to experiment and wasn't looking to struggle.

 

[BTSeven7]

Playing on Emperor and Immortal I find RV to be the easiest with Mali. It requires a lot of diplomacy out the gate. I found them super frustrating at first bc I kept trying a traditional route. 4 early cities is more than enough to get it going if you handle early diplomacy okay.

My strategy:
-Buy early warriors to avoid fast attack
-Get desert folklore
-Do the obvious diplo things and give gifts! 10 diplo favor will do it most of the time. As soon as they flip green get your friendships.
-Get your religion. Get two early apostles and get all the follower beliefs you want.
-Find your chops for the RV wonders (Haga mainly)

I can get to 350 faith by 150 turns or so.

The follower beliefs I like are the one with food from religious buildings so you can grow your cities. The building for extra spread. Then ignore terrain movements and +2 faith per city following.

I could see a mid game conquering spree being viable if you stab some early friends in the back but once I figured out early diplomacy I didn’t have any problems with Mali but it was simply all faith generation and ignoring every other aspect of the game.

 

[steveg700]

I disagree. Even with a favorable start, the Mali are far, far from the strongest civ. Just tried Mali with a very nice start. The empire wasnt well going till the medieval/renaissance. Even then, it wasnt much stronger than the other empires out there, despite me chaining golden ages.
You simply have too many things to get and so few resources... I never felt as poor as when I played Mali, simply because I never had enough money/faith to cover the spendings.

Yeah, I've been there. Really need commercial CS's with Mali. CS's have that tendency to break all implicit limits.

Btw, build your suguba first, not the HS or campus. Cheaper to build and makes things cheaper to buy.

 

[MarigoldRan]

But you're NOT going to get Suguba first if you have major barb trouble or a close neighbor (one of these events will happens 80% of the time).

 

[Roxlimn]

I think Mali is best when the second city is fully 6 tiles of desert all around. Other cities do not need desert at all. You just need that one city from which to send your 10+ gold trade routes in the Ancient Era.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I actually think the problem early game is they have a production malus but they don't actually have a bonus to spend less gold until they get a suguba. You need to build mines early as Mali to get gold, and yes, starts without hills are hosed. Well they're hosed by default but doubly worse as Mali.

The only other thing you can do is simply take advantage of the desert bonus and build farms (lol) to boost housing and make your city big enough so you simply work more tiles to overcome the production problem via brute force. But how do you do this without getting rekt by amenities? Chances are you might do well with the River Goddess pantheon or Zen Meditation, or chop out Artemis. But that's not always viable either since Religious Settlements is still better because you take so long to build a settler. Then again, what is another 5% when you already have 33?

 

[kb27787]

But you're NOT going to get Suguba first if you have major barb trouble or a close neighbor (one of these events will happens 80% of the time).

I agree... Suguba and market early is suicidal unless you want to run internal routes.
Ever had a barb camp spawn and the scout plunders your route immediately such that you don't have time to react? You need some fog busters up first before you can get the route gold and leverage the UA.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Going to run a mod where population points provide 1 production naturally (for everyone).

Speeds up game. The AI tends to run away with this mod (especially Scot and Korea) and the amount of military they can build early is insane, but it's a huge boost to Mali, too.

 

[steveg700]

But you're NOT going to get Suguba first if you have major barb trouble or a close neighbor (one of these events will happens 80% of the time).

80% is another spurious figure you're tossing out, but of course if you do have military troubles they have to receive priority.

I agree... Suguba and market early is suicidal unless you want to run internal routes.
Ever had a barb camp spawn and the scout plunders your route immediately such that you don't have time to react? You need some fog busters up first before you can get the route gold and leverage the UA.

The route is gravy. You get the suguba for the discuont it provides. But with the very first city, HS first.

I actually think the problem early game is they have a production malus but they don't actually have a bonus to spend less gold until they get a suguba. You need to build mines early as Mali to get gold, and yes, starts without hills are hosed. Well they're hosed by default but doubly worse as Mali.

A proper start with Mali means not needing farms a good while. Mali needs some source of gold, not gears, so that's where the "good start" paradigm has to shift. You really want cash luxes like cotton or cocoa.

I disagree. Even with a favorable start, the Mali are far, far from the strongest civ. Just tried Mali with a very nice start. The empire wasnt well going till the medieval/renaissance. Even then, it wasnt much stronger than the other empires out there, despite me chaining golden ages.
You simply have too many things to get and so few resources... I never felt as poor as when I played Mali, simply because I never had enough money/faith to cover the spendings.

I picked the desert folklore pantheon + choral Music belief & the Wat as religious building. Every desert city was building a HS + Suguba asap. Every non desert city was focused on Campus + suguba). I was spending all my faith on settlers/markets. All my gold was spent on buildings. But neither my faith nor my money generation was enough to cover the respective spendings (compared to another civ).

Getting back to this comment, what I think really causes a problem is the escalating cost of civilian units. I mean, in the modern era, they cost about a thousand apiece. If I had to cite a reason gold is hardly piling up around my feet, that and the dearth of commerical CS's in my game would be it (only one left, and I had to liberate that sucker). Now, I have crap-ton of cities across the map, but still, we're talking about a unit that in a normal game would only take three turns to bang out.

It is certainly not just enough to have to suguba. You gotta pursue alliances, CS's (Cahokia should be a priority way more than usual), and look at the map in stronger terms of seeking out plantations. Really gotta be prepped for when Monumentality is removed from the table in the Industrial era. I don't know that even with 24 trade routes right now that Reform the Coinage really makes up for its loss.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well, here's a great start for Mali. Yea I guess any civ would do well if Kandy and a cultural CS is nearby, but that Religious Settlements is most valuable here. The key is to spend your production on districts, wonders, and projects, and try to buy buildings and units.

Also I'm starting to think Suguba adjacency is overrated and maybe even drop the religion part if you can't boost astrology. It's not like gold is going to be a problem.



Start looked meh....



But...

Spoiler :

And a natural wonder for Religious Settlements.

Spoiler :

Lol...


This game would have been much better if I made better decisions like not trying to invade without the proper army and tryharding by selling favor, but it was pretty smooth and easy. Oh and for the love of God, ignore the +2 holy site for Natural Wonder bonus since it almost always overwrites a good tile. Sigh.... Kandy is to the west btw.

As always I use Defender of the Faith to guard against early aggression.

Seed: 1680127824

1680127823

Fractal, Normal Size/Speed, Immortal

 

[steveg700]

Well, here's a great start for Mali. Yea I guess any civ would do well if Kandy and a cultural CS is nearby, but that Religious Settlements is most valuable here. The key is to spend your production on districts, wonders, and projects, and try to buy buildings and units.

Also I'm starting to think Suguba adjacency is overrated and maybe even drop the religion part if you can't boost astrology. It's not like gold is going to be a problem.

Yeps, great start, but don't let your situation in this game (with Petra) deceive you. Gold can certainly be a problem. Without sugubas why wouldn't it be a problem? There's not always going to be gold on every other tile. The suguba is a definite asset. A 20% discount is hardly anything to poo-poo.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I already won though. 750 gpt and that favor should give the gold.

And yes I put Sugubas in most cities but mostly for the cheapness and gold discounts. You can also just buy stuff from Suguba cities too. It's just that trying to get the most adjacency sometimes isn't always worth the sacrifice.

 

[NukeAJS]

Peeps mentioned gunning for a dark age going into the classical with the idea that you could get a heroic age in the medieval and I thought they were nuts. Then I properly did it as Mansa Musa and I have to agree that it can make some sense in some situations ... sometimes.

Mansa Musa one of those possibilities because you're already going to get a slow start. While a normal golden age might help you get out of that ditch faster, a medieval heroic age can possibly set everything Mansa Musa is good at into hyper-speed. If played properly, you can catapult ahead, comparatively, by the time the renaissance comes. If you know how to prepare, you can easily ignore or not even have to worry about classical-era dark age penalties.

On the other hand, Mali is a very geography-based civ. They're near the top of the list as far as geography goes. If you get a start on plains with a decent desert city not within 4-6 tiles, you're at a huge handicap. Climbing out of the "Mali-hole" is definitely the most important part of playing Mali well. Conversely, Mali is the only civ that I will always crush in the beginning of the game when they are a rival -- no questions asked. You can't let them snowball. If they've done everything right -- which means they got the grandmaster's chapel -- you should be done.

 

[Sostratus]

Also I'm starting to think Suguba adjacency is overrated and maybe even drop the religion part if you can't boost astrology. It's not like gold is going to be a problem.

The trick is to play sugubas the same way you would play Hansas before the June update. In fact, my Hansa/Suguba guide's first page covers that exact scenario.
The amount of early gold to be had from that is plenty; stacking on the absurd Free Inquiry Golden age will catapult you excessively far ahead. Suppose you start on a river. That's practically a guaranteed trio of +7-8 sugubas. Throw in reyna's harbormaster in one city and you're talking what, 3030 off the bat? I mean this is like early classical.
Plus you'll basically always get the Free Market boost, which is nothing to sneeze at.

On the other hand, Mali is a very geography-based civ. They're near the top of the list as far as geography goes. If you get a start on plains with a decent desert city not within 4-6 tiles, you're at a huge handicap. Climbing out of the "Mali-hole" is definitely the most important part of playing Mali well. Conversely, Mali is the only civ that I will always crush in the beginning of the game when they are a rival -- no questions asked. You can't let them snowball. If they've done everything right -- which means they got the grandmaster's chapel -- you should be done.

I think the real power is in the suguba+HS+purchase discount, rather than the desert. Yeah, you can lock first pantheon by just starting next to desert, but beyond that, it's a bigger boon to have more productive terrain that can get you expanding to more cities faster than it is to have a bunch of desert right away. You only need one patch of desert to set up the trade route gold generator if you even need to do that, since a good suguba layout will rake in so much cash. Ideally you'll have a tile or two touching your capital city center and then lush land to settle asap with desert next door for wave 2.

Just starting on a river for Suguba building is really the core need. If you snag choral music you can simplify your build to Suguba+HS+Campus to cover /// which is everything you actually need. That's only 7 pop cities which isn't too hard to do. I mean a malinese city planted in the middle of desert still gets 8 food minimum, that's enough for 2 districts. Core use of early faith is for suguba buildings! Everyone forgets they can do the ol' "pray to pay" market rush.

The only new downside is that great IZ placement using AQ/dam conflicts with great suguba placement. But Mali is possibly the only civ where that truly won't matter by the industrial.