Massive Suggestions Post

Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
674
Post from a long time lurker (6 years on & off). Forgive me for my clunky English.
Only just got back to Civ after a long break, so I haven't played the latest version of the mod. I used to mod RAFC a lot, but I'm bad with computers and always ended up breaking the game after a few weeks of tinkering or after attempted any radical change.
Please give some detailed feedback, as it took me quite a lot of effort & time to write this, and I'd be very interested to any reasons to why you could/couldn't include them.

Arabs/Islam suggestions
Spoiler :
I don't know if this is possible, but this is an idea to go along with the feature of the Arabs removing other religions on conquest.
Would it be possible to remove Holy City's religions, but only on the condition that they were the last remaining City of that religion? For example, if the Arabs conquer all (formerly) Catholic Cities, only then would they be able to wipe the religion from Rome.
Instead of the tech UHV
Spoiler :
(which I think is unhistorical, as almost all "Arab" science came almost entirely from Persians, Greeks & Jews)
- You could have "Make Islam as the world's sole religion", to force constant forceful Muslim expansion throughout the game, as in history.
Zorastrianism could be placed in an eastern Indian City to make it harder to wipe out.
It could also allow for a new Byzantine goal, to replace one of the duller ones: No Islamic Cities by [x date] It would then by an intense struggle for the human player to contain Islam before the Indonesian & Mali spawns.
-Arabia needs to be given a boost in general, it never even takes north Africa in my games. Probably good to stop the AI from founding so many rubbish cities in Yemen/Oman too.
-Caliphate of Arabia sounds very ugly, I don't see what's wrong with Ummayad/Abbasid instead. Also "The Arabs" sounds much nicer than "Arabia", which makes it sound like it's only referring to the Penisula.
-Have a Ka'aba wonder spawn on Mecca's founding for a big culture boost against the later Turkish spawn, and to represent that the city was major religious centre long before Muhammad. Also to make the Penisula slightly more viable in general.


Misc. Religion Suggestions
Spoiler :

Orthodoxy
I'd really like to see Orthodoxy for Russia, Ethiopia & Greece/Byzantium.
Opens a range of new gameplay options, which I'll mention later.
Speaking as one myself, having all Christianity represented by the Papal faith & its later reaction is one of the most glaring missing abscences of the mod.
It certainly has more overall historical prominence and especially gameplay reasons to include over Zorastrianism for example. Though only problem is I can't think of anyway to spawn it in Constantinople in the 3000 AD map except for scripting.

New Inquistor mechanics
Inquisitors can now operate in foreign cities, provided the other Civ is using certain civics, or has no state religion. Would make deciding whether to make open border agreements with certain Civs more interesting; as as it is now there's almost no reason not to have open borders whenever possible. Would also allow the Arabs to win a UHV victory without total world-conquest.;)


General Russian suggestions:


Spoiler :
- Change the Russian UHV to some sort of mechanic that gives them a massive espionage boost. Actually , giving the Russians the Byzantine UP & giving the Byzantines a UP identical to the Arab's, except relating to Orthodoxy.
The Byzantine-Arab wars would then take on an epic nature imo.:cool:
A script could also be added for in event of an early (and extremely unlikely) Byzantine victory over the Arabs, Orthodox events would in place of Islamic ones for the Turks & so on.

The Russians would then compensate for their low-tech & poor techtrading prospects by aquiring techs from the Europeans through spies. Which sort of happened in history with Peter the Great dressing up as a peasant & learning about shipbuilding in Holland.
The "General Winter" tech only makes sense for the Russian heartland, and passive UP's are boring anyway.

- Replace the "friendly Communist Civs" with "have the world's largest population by 1925" or an earlier goal with something to do with Orthodoxy or technology.
- Give Russian technology a nerf in early era's, then with a boosted rate after 1800 or so. Maybe improve the UB as well.


Other Misc

Spoiler :
- Make it more easy to beeline in the earlier tech tree, and make much longer to reach any of the Industrial or Modern era's. I'm sick of seeing Civ's with Tank's & Airports who've skipped half the industrial techs.

- Include Willowmounds "Actual Quotes" mod. It's a tiny file, & suprisingly makes the game much more fun to play for such a seemingly small change. Goes with the historical theme too.

- Include the new version of the "Ethnically diverse Cities" mod. It's been out for a long time, and has added dozens and dozens of new artworks since Rhye first included it. (The Russian & Southern European artworks are especially good) If you can include new leaderheads you can definitely include this.

- Byzantium has no reason to spawn for the 3000 BC map, and Greece especially has no reason to spawn for the 600 AD map.
I don't see how the Byzantines were anything but a Christian continuation/revival of Greek civilisation. After all, they spoke Greek, were ethnically Greek, they were referred to as Greeks by their contemporaries, and Greece today considers the Byzantines as their own.
If Greece spawns on the 600 AD map, that basically leaves any surviving Byzantine Civ as city-state squashed between the Turks, Russians & Greeks. It also makes playing Byzantium literally impossible after the 1500's for a human player.
As for the 3000 AD map, either the Greeks have a scripted respawn if the Romans become unstable after conquering them and remove the Byzantines. Otherwise, the Byzantines only spawn if the Greeks are dead, and the Greeks only re-spawn if the Byzantines are dead. Does this make sense?:rolleyes:

- Make the British Empire continental city goal a later date with more cities. Would makes it less of settler-spam rush & it would require more planning and strategy to have more cities later. Plus the British Empire had barely started by 1730.

- More numerous & earlier caucasian cities (for Armenia & Georgia) with an improvement of those tiles, probably making them grassland & a fish resource in the black or caspian sea. Maybe spawn a Muslim-Chechen with added raiding units city late in the game to give Russia a headache.

- Have the Mongol UB give a free "Morale" promotion to all units, so that conquest doesn't slow turn into a slog across asia for the human player, as well as helping out the AI.

- Have some strong independent cities representing Finland/Estonia/Lithunia to stop Vikings from settling Russia/Central-Asia so often (at least the last time I played this happened at least half my games). Though this might make them even more inland orientated, I'm not sure.

- Have all 3 Christian Holy Cities in Jerusalem, which could make an late-spawning Israel city-state civ viable. Would also give Arabia much need boosting, for both human & AI. Arabia has gone from easily the strongest Civ to play in Vanilla RAFC (the AI was just awful), to one of the hardest. Their AI is still a joke.

-Hardcode the Seljuks to attack Westwards, or have them spawn neutral to the Arabs, I don't know.

- Make Tibet much better defended.

- Oromo raiders for later centuries when Impi's become a joke & Bedouins become a minor annoyance. Have Numidian cavalry raiders instead of Bedouins in the earlier ages so keeping Carthage isn't impossible.

- Code the Greeks to attack Eastward, (or at least not the Ukraine) to soften up for the Arabs later.

- Ethnically diverse units mod. Would be practically the only reason I would want to play Ethiopia tbh. Ethiopia's colour is almost impossible to distinguish from Egypt on the map btw. Also Indonesia & Inca are nearly identical on minimap.

- I remember someone mentioned they scripted the game as to make dead civilisations names dissapear from the diplomacy list, it would be a no-brainer to add-in, as having a long list of moribund Civs clogging up the screen doesn't really add anything. Often it takes up half the screen, it might be a good idea to keep the short names for the screen



Sorry if all these suggestions make it sound like I hate the mod, because I really think its an big improvement on an already fantastic original mod. Its very impressive that you managed to make the Mughal, Indonesian & new Dutch civs work especially.
Thanks if you managed to read everything. :p
 
Lol I almost did a spit take when you said "Make Islam as the world's sole religion." In order to do that you'd have to destroy...well just about every one excluding the Mali, Egypt, Turkey, Persian/Iran, the Mughals and the native American civs. That would give you a Domination victory well before even achieving that goal I would think.

Also there is Orthodoxy in the SVN, and I've never seen the option to jump in as Greece in 600AD, though I've seen it respawn a few times. And it's waaaaay to early for me to add anything else even remotely constructive to this post :p
 
Well, Orthodoxy is already in the SVN, and there will probably be a 1.9 full update coming out soon with that. I disagree with the changes to the civ list; one of my favourite parts of the mod is seeing those really long names and the gigantic list of dead civs at the bottom, especially as you get into the late game. Also, making Islam the only religion, even your way, would be near impossible, even with your inquisitor changes, like OnlySigurd said. But, I do think that you do have some good suggestions in there. Let's see what Leoreth thinks of it.
 
I try to be as detailed as possible, but please understand that I can't reply to every point.

1) Arabia stuff:
I think "wiping out" religions is a lot more ahistorical than the tech goal; it doesn't matter that Persians were a major contributor to "Arab" science, they did so under Arab rule (or later Turkic, but you're there to prevent that from happening after all). On the other hand, the Arabs were also very tolerant of other religions, considering the large amount of Eastern Christians that have survived to this day. I'm going to change the tech goal so that it's a little more challenging, that's it.

Similarly, containment of Islam itself was certainly not a goal of Byzantium.

... I'm not sure which version you're talking about with Arabia's spread into Africa or city spam on the Arabian peninsula but it's certainly not 1.8 or later.

Rashidun/Ummayad/Abbasid Caliphate/Sultanate are already the Arabian dynamic names, since 1.81.

I've actually recently considered to have the Arabs spawn with Muhammad as a GP so they can immediately construct the Masjid al-Haram (which by the way is their shrine, not the Kaaba). But thanks to the Mezquita it currently gets built in the 9th century so it's not that bad.

2) Religion stuff:

Orthodoxy is already in the SVN as mentioned.

Persecution too, although it's a project instead of a unit for various AI reasons.

3) Russia stuff:
I like the current UP (it could be implemented better so the AI doesn't get confused by it though). Russia already gets a large espionage boost thanks to St. Basil's Cathedral which is pretty exclusive to them thanks to the Orthodoxy requirement, and there's the also Russian-themed Lubyanka wonder too.

Russia's early research is already fairly slow imo.

4) Art stuff:
Ethnically diverse cities and units is essentially Varietas Delectat which I already intend to release as a module soon.

5) Miscellaneous stuff:
Holy cities should be where the religious centers of their religion are, and that's for not Jerusalem for any Christian denomination. The Catholic shrine is already in Jerusalem in 600 AD which is a fair representation imo.

Tibet already is better defended now.

Askari or Numidian cavalry as African barbarians is a good idea.

The Greeks will be prevented from going into Ukraine too much soon, I don't know if I can "code" them to actually conquer something in the middle east without scripting.

Removing dead civs from the scoreboard is a good idea and probably a no-brainer.
 
Inquistor mechanics
Allow to train inquisitor under Fanaticism or Theocracy.

Change the Russian UHV to some sort of mechanic that gives them a massive espionage boost
Add russian UB- Kremlin, which will produce espionage points.

Replace the "friendly Communist Civs" with "have the world's largest population by 1925".
What about India and China?

- Make the British Empire continental city goal a later date with more cities. Would makes it less of settler-spam rush & it would require more planning and strategy to have more cities later. Plus the British Empire had barely started by 1730.
Agree. Colonize every continent by 1850 will be better. (Victorian era)
 
I try to be as detailed as possible, but please understand that I can't reply to every point.
I've actually recently considered to have the Arabs spawn with Muhammad as a GP so they can immediately construct the Masjid al-Haram (which by the way is their shrine, not the Kaaba). But thanks to the Mezquita it currently gets built in the 9th century so it's not that bad.

I would love having the Arabs spawn with a GP; makes just tons of sense. I haven't played the Arabs recently but in previous versions I had all sorts of trouble spawning a GP since Alexandria started with the Great Library. I wonder if he wasn't suggesting a separate "Kaaba" wonder to help with culture which would be auto-built in an indy Makkah before the Arab spawn? Though I do wonder what its effect might be.
 
Oh, didn't interpret it that way. But Makkah usually doesn't have culture problems.
 
Agree that the English Colonization goal could be postponed. For one thing, if it's postponed past 1775 then the American War of Independence may actually be interesting for Human England.
 
you know your on to something when new people suggest changes that have already been implemented. above average minds occasionally stumbling upon the same idea, or something like that. someone should come up with a saying for that
 
Allow to train inquisitor under Fanaticism or Theocracy.


Add russian UB- Kremlin, which will produce espionage points.


What about India and China?

I just despise Russian UP more than anything, the AI can't understand it, culture is very difficult for Russia so it can only be used passively, and it doesn't make much sense having "general winter" in say Uzbekistan or Armenia.
I'll admit I'm personally biased towards playing espionage based games in general though.


What about India and China?

What about them? Having population goal for Russia would work similarly to territory one, except it would encourage players to develop their empire in addition to just settler-spamming.

I try to be as detailed as possible, but please understand that I can't reply to every point.

1) Arabia stuff:
I think "wiping out" religions is a lot more ahistorical than the tech goal; it doesn't matter that Persians were a major contributor to "Arab" science, they did so under Arab rule (or later Turkic, but you're there to prevent that from happening after all). On the other hand, the Arabs were also very tolerant of other religions, considering the large amount of Eastern Christians that have survived to this day. I'm going to change the tech goal so that it's a little more challenging, that's it.

Islamic tolerance of Christians, historically & now, (in most Islamic countries) extends about as far as Medieval Christian "tolerance" for the Jews, in that they were/often are only allowed to live as Christians/Jews/Zorastrians in segregated communities, paying excorbiant Jizzyah taxes and often fearing for their lives.
So I'd say the continued survival of Christians in the East is more in spite of history than anything. Huge numbers have been leaving in recent years also.
Coming from someone with a Diaphysite (Monophysite used to be a derogatory term) & Sephardic backround.
Though of course the Arabs are also simply the funnest domination Civ. Since the eliminating religions on conquest feature, perhaps the 40% Islam goal should just be bumped up to 65%?



Similarly, containment of Islam itself was certainly not a goal of Byzantium.

Well they never really had any respite to even consider it did they? I'm sure they would have loved to do so, considering Muslims had been pillaging, raiding, pirating & gradually conquering their Empire for over half a millenium. Was the Muslim world ever not at War with the Greeks? It would be great gameplay to have a latter-day version of Justinians reconquests.

... I'm not sure which version you're talking about with Arabia's spread into Africa or city spam on the Arabian peninsula but it's certainly not 1.8 or later.

Rashidun/Ummayad/Abbasid Caliphate/Sultanate are already the Arabian dynamic names, since 1.81.

Oh ok, thats great if Africa remaining indepenent until Europeans take it 1700's has been fixed. I probably should have played a few games of the new version before posting..


I've actually recently considered to have the Arabs spawn with Muhammad as a GP so they can immediately construct the Masjid al-Haram (which by the way is their shrine, not the Kaaba). But thanks to the Mezquita it currently gets built in the 9th century so it's not that bad.


I should have been clearer. I meant having Makkah spawn independent earlier with the Ka'aba as a pre-Islamic wonder (2+ great prophet, 2-exp in cities with state religion?), to prevent settling in Arabia and giving the culture boost for the 3000 BC start.


4) Art stuff:
Ethnically diverse cities and units is essentially Varietas Delectat which I already intend to release as a module soon.

Does this mean EDC&U are coming in with the new update of the your mod-mod, or as optional add-on made by another? With all the new leaderhead data already added I don't see the size issue.

5) Miscellaneous stuff:
The Greeks will be prevented from going into Ukraine too much soon, I don't know if I can "code" them to actually conquer something in the middle east without scripting.

A Greek 2nd city at Smyrna might work.

Thanks for your feedback, I know it was long post.
I tried to edit a lot of things in ROFC that's now here but I always ended up making the game crash.
 
I find it hard to reply to your post because the quotes are messed up, and apparently some of your answers are in the quoted parts.

In either case you just appear to have an ... incomplete view on religious relations in the middle east in my opinion. I'm not saying that every Muslim ruler was totally tolerant (the events that led to the First Crusade come to mind), but in general, yes it was better than the Spanish treatment of Sephardic Jews. In any case it's not that simple to embrace it as a defining trait of Arabs or Muslim and make it their goal to eradicate all religions. Finally, creating a UHV that amounts to achieving domination just isn't right. UHVs should be an alternative to domination.

For the Varietas Delectat stuff, I'll make a module out of it soon, which means it'll be an extra folder you can optionally add to the game. That the mod is already large because of the extra leader and wonder stuff is exactly the reason why I intend to make it a separate release.
 
Top Bottom