Master of Mana Xtended 4.0
- Thread starter esvath
- Start date
The easiest thing to do would be to Turn this into a flat amount, perhaps increased by certain military/civic techs. Keep it relevant, but lower the crazy scaling.
Ogi123
The End is the Beginning is the End
You will also need to do something with stables if you want avoid crazy scaling. Currently they are basically free +3 support per city.
honestly, I don't think it's that much of a problem.
the good units are expensive enough in non-commutative ressources : Yield.
you need to pay that herb/metal/leather... etc upfront in order to build the unit.
and that cannot be bought by gold/rush...etc
It is thus relatively difficult to flood the scene with units (well, you can, but not soo easily). (and why would you need 50+ units... when 20 tierIV units level 6 are sufficient to beat them all).
having stables everywhere is nice. (there is in fact, without stables, a lack of scaling of the supported units with the number / size of cities (or not enough). Stable compensate for that. but maybe +2 would be enough.
Further, it is expected that military state allows lots of units.... the loss is that you lose in other topics.
maybe military state defects are not enough..
or the bonus of other civics not enough.
On the reverse, I think we should have more "commerce/production/units...etc" on the military tech lines as the AI cannot calculate the value of a '+2 for units' when there is nothing else available in the tech.
the good units are expensive enough in non-commutative ressources : Yield.
you need to pay that herb/metal/leather... etc upfront in order to build the unit.
and that cannot be bought by gold/rush...etc
It is thus relatively difficult to flood the scene with units (well, you can, but not soo easily). (and why would you need 50+ units... when 20 tierIV units level 6 are sufficient to beat them all).
having stables everywhere is nice. (there is in fact, without stables, a lack of scaling of the supported units with the number / size of cities (or not enough). Stable compensate for that. but maybe +2 would be enough.
Further, it is expected that military state allows lots of units.... the loss is that you lose in other topics.
maybe military state defects are not enough..
or the bonus of other civics not enough.
On the reverse, I think we should have more "commerce/production/units...etc" on the military tech lines as the AI cannot calculate the value of a '+2 for units' when there is nothing else available in the tech.
Esvath: Some local legends do seem to be granting just +2 adventurers, rather than anything Civ specific ... I noticed it with Aristakh and Balseraphs to name a few.
And some human adenturers (maybe grigori) cannot upgrade
And some human adenturers (maybe grigori) cannot upgrade
This is a very good point. Properly invested top tier units with good class/promotion planning and equipment are amazing.
The thing is, a wide empire can cheese out a lot of them when human controlled. Just build two warehouse districts and the yield price is not worry (nor is equipment price).
@ Sezneg.
you are right...
however :
imagine a wide empire, strong enough to pump out 1 fully equipped lvl6 knight/bladedancer/anytierIV unit per turn (or every 2 turns)
(4-500yield + 400 for a better sword/lance/whatever + 200-300 yield for a good armor + 100/200 mana for a +fire/life/water/etc affinity or a +xp bonus or a flame sword/bow/spear or mobilty/escape boots)
it means between 900 yield and 1200 yield +100-200mana
so you have an empire that can use easily 900-1200yield every 2 turns +200 mana (not counting yield needed for buildings and for IMPROVEMENTS and spells for leveling your adepts/mages and summoning / cast global spells)
this needs a decent size empire (with 10 cities I couldn't do it, as I needed science cities, and gold cities, and spellresearch cities just to tech to get those units/spells/equipement) (and I could "almost" do it only because I raided barb camps in the whole wilderness and gained FREE 1000+ yield every 3-5 turns)
why wouldn't such an empire (20+cities), which needed a colossal investment of yield for the improvements and buildings, be able to support 75units ? or more ? (it's only 3-4 units per city.... )
so, when you say a "wide empire".... well, shouldn't it also allow for a "wide number of units"?
/regards
you are right...
however :
imagine a wide empire, strong enough to pump out 1 fully equipped lvl6 knight/bladedancer/anytierIV unit per turn (or every 2 turns)
(4-500yield + 400 for a better sword/lance/whatever + 200-300 yield for a good armor + 100/200 mana for a +fire/life/water/etc affinity or a +xp bonus or a flame sword/bow/spear or mobilty/escape boots)
it means between 900 yield and 1200 yield +100-200mana
so you have an empire that can use easily 900-1200yield every 2 turns +200 mana (not counting yield needed for buildings and for IMPROVEMENTS and spells for leveling your adepts/mages and summoning / cast global spells)
this needs a decent size empire (with 10 cities I couldn't do it, as I needed science cities, and gold cities, and spellresearch cities just to tech to get those units/spells/equipement) (and I could "almost" do it only because I raided barb camps in the whole wilderness and gained FREE 1000+ yield every 3-5 turns)
why wouldn't such an empire (20+cities), which needed a colossal investment of yield for the improvements and buildings, be able to support 75units ? or more ? (it's only 3-4 units per city.... )
so, when you say a "wide empire".... well, shouldn't it also allow for a "wide number of units"?
/regards
It does allow for wider number of units. And due to the benefit of yield vs tall empire, it allows more of those units to be high tier AND more of the army to be properly equipped.
Hi all,
First time posting here, i want to say this is the best mod in my opinion as it goes deep into making every civilization different and i like the way magic/religion work.
I'm also here to talk about Grigori, there are OP imo.
I think there is a bug on there adventurer, if it's not a bug, it is way too unbalanced.
Adventurer can upgrade to another unit without any tech, making it possible to have a Chevalier with only 400 gold.
I did that in my game at turn 30 ! (normal speed)
Two things made it possible :
-The Grigori start the game with an adventurer (what for ?)
-I got a lucky event "your worker found 285 gold"
I think few things are needed to make it balance :
-do not give an adventurer at the start of the game
-do not give an adventurer as a local legend (as AI does not rush that u get 2 adventurer for free)
-do not give "hero promotion after defeating a living unit" for DragonSlayer, Chevalier, Treasure Hunter.
I like the lore aspect of this, but it break the Adventurer's mechanic mid/late game. What is the point in going for Birth rate / great people if u can just create a bunch of Dragon Slayer, farm gobelin fort or animal and get the hero promo ?
Maybe change that into " 50% to get the second chance promotion after defeating a living unit. It will allow risky exploration without making your army 100% hero/immortal.
-adventurer need some tech to upgrade into the best unit (having an early DragonSlayer help but doesn't break the game, having an early 15/13 strenght Chevalier does)
The tech can be another one than the one needed for the unit (maybe a guild's tech?) but gold is not enought in my opinion.
This is my feeling after one Grigori game ... maybe i got super lucky...
I really like the fact that the adventurer can be from another civilization/race, allowing upgrade into this civ's unit, but the "i need only gold to get a strong hero unit" seems unbalance early game.
If anyone see a better way to fix that...
First time posting here, i want to say this is the best mod in my opinion as it goes deep into making every civilization different and i like the way magic/religion work.
I'm also here to talk about Grigori, there are OP imo.
I think there is a bug on there adventurer, if it's not a bug, it is way too unbalanced.
Adventurer can upgrade to another unit without any tech, making it possible to have a Chevalier with only 400 gold.
I did that in my game at turn 30 ! (normal speed)
Two things made it possible :
-The Grigori start the game with an adventurer (what for ?)
-I got a lucky event "your worker found 285 gold"
I think few things are needed to make it balance :
-do not give an adventurer at the start of the game
-do not give an adventurer as a local legend (as AI does not rush that u get 2 adventurer for free)
-do not give "hero promotion after defeating a living unit" for DragonSlayer, Chevalier, Treasure Hunter.
I like the lore aspect of this, but it break the Adventurer's mechanic mid/late game. What is the point in going for Birth rate / great people if u can just create a bunch of Dragon Slayer, farm gobelin fort or animal and get the hero promo ?
Maybe change that into " 50% to get the second chance promotion after defeating a living unit. It will allow risky exploration without making your army 100% hero/immortal.
-adventurer need some tech to upgrade into the best unit (having an early DragonSlayer help but doesn't break the game, having an early 15/13 strenght Chevalier does)
The tech can be another one than the one needed for the unit (maybe a guild's tech?) but gold is not enought in my opinion.
This is my feeling after one Grigori game ... maybe i got super lucky...
I really like the fact that the adventurer can be from another civilization/race, allowing upgrade into this civ's unit, but the "i need only gold to get a strong hero unit" seems unbalance early game.
If anyone see a better way to fix that...
I think what may be throwing you off is the change in scale on unit strength.
For instance, that 15/13 is not much stronger than normal units that can be produced outside of the adventurer mechanic by normal civs in the early/mid stages of the game. Due to the limitation on numbers for adventurers, they should be stronger in comparison.
Events can swing games, perhaps too much right now. For instance, getting a religious unit from a goody hut early and founding a religion in the first 10-15 turns is a huge swing that can snowball, especially if the religion lines up with your civ (elvish civ grabbing Fellowship of leaves that early is scary). I think the gold event had as much to do with your experience as did the underlying adventurer/upgrade part.
Actually the 15/13 Chevalier is the UU for knights. Grigori can build this unit late game, just need War Horse, some hammer and resources. It will get the +2 strenght and stay ahead.
It is the same as allowing the Lanun to get a War Tortoise, the Loj to get a Griffon Rider ... it is still a tier 4 unit without needing the tech.
Adventurers "only" get the hero promotion, allowing risky exploration/fight, it feel strong in game. But starting with one is a huge advantage early on.
True, maybe i over-react because of the lucky event : without the gold i would have upgraded into Dragon Slayer and not Chevalier.
I'll play few more Grigori game to see that.
Most (all?) units can gain a version of the hero promotion. You have to take Offensive discipline and then Champion. It gives you a chance to gain second chance every turn as hero's do.
esvath
Apprentice of Erebus
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2008
- Messages
- 1,403
I have been thinking, what if:
- Grigori units lost "1% chance to get Hero promotion after combat".
- Adventurers (and this means Adventurers for all, if somehow another Civ manages to get Adventurers) gain "1% chance to get Hero promotion after combat".
- Adventurers can be upgraded by paying gold after they have Hero promotion?
That would reduce early Adventurer steam roll a bit (well, depend on RNG). But will this nerf Grigori too much?
- Grigori units lost "1% chance to get Hero promotion after combat".
- Adventurers (and this means Adventurers for all, if somehow another Civ manages to get Adventurers) gain "1% chance to get Hero promotion after combat".
- Adventurers can be upgraded by paying gold after they have Hero promotion?
That would reduce early Adventurer steam roll a bit (well, depend on RNG). But will this nerf Grigori too much?
to be honest, by that time of the game, (early game), your unit is 7 str, or, depending on civ : 9 str.
so a 15/13 is pretty powerful.
if, by chance, you get +2 techs ; your units of early game are 11 or 13 str... but that same grigori Adventurer, is at ... 19/17: still OP vs the 13 str.
tbh: in doing so: the unit is to be at least level 4 ; the unit misses on a powerful alternative to champion. (flagbearer ? berserker / +20%+chance to get the combat promotion... etc other)
so getting that "semi-hero" promotion, is costly.
IMO, grigori units could get "chance to get second chance" , instead of hero.
Grigori already have the "adventurers" who get "hero" from early on.
re-adventurers and upgrade.. maybe it could be interesting if the upgrade was managed as "adventurer can upgrade to any unit", instead of being managed by a spell/event. (but you might only be able to upgrde to your own civ unit...even if the adventurer has a different racial)
esvath
Apprentice of Erebus
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2008
- Messages
- 1,403
Xtended 5.0 (17 September 2016)
Change Log:
To Do Next:
If you are interested in writing short entries for units, spells, promotions, buildings, techs etc, feel free to do so! I will include them in future version!
Instructions:
If you have error: GFC Error: failed to initialize primary control theme, try to rename the folder into "Master of Mana".
Hey, Tschuggi, nice to see you here mate!
Change Log:
- Bugfixes by Carnival Bizarre.
- Balances and tweaks to existing units and promotions.
- Grigori: Adventurers no longer have Hero from start. Instead, they have small chance to gain Hero promotion after winning battle. Spells to transform Adventures to various units requires Hero promotion.
- Archmagi are no longer buildable (have to be upgraded from level 10+ Mage). This will make Liches more useful (hints!).
- Some units from Guilds are restricted to certain number. That way, civ's UUs will still play important role. H
- Affinity is no longer capped. Hoard that mana node!
- Supply from Training Yard etc are reduced; these buildings give extra XP instead.
- Dural: units now use new roster mechanic.
- New Enchantments, Summons etc. Now each school has 29-30 items.
- Cleaning Civpedia. No more duplicate units or many blocked units etc.
To Do Next:
- Adding Jotnar to unit roster mechanic.
- Adding more spells, enchantments etc.
- Adding general strategy for each Civ to Civpedia.
- Adding lore entries to Civpedia.
- Bugfixes, if any.
If you are interested in writing short entries for units, spells, promotions, buildings, techs etc, feel free to do so! I will include them in future version!
Instructions:
- Download Master of Mana from Sourceforge.
- Download Xtended 5.0 from here.
- Unzip Xtended 5.0.
- Copy-and-replace the Asset folder from Xtended 5.0 to Master of Mana.
If you have error: GFC Error: failed to initialize primary control theme, try to rename the folder into "Master of Mana".
Hi guys
everything still hanging, obviously
Greez,
Tschuggi
Hey, Tschuggi, nice to see you here mate!
Ogi123
The End is the Beginning is the End
Quick feedback about Dural units:
-warrior really needs better icon
-I don't think that mercenary arms should be visible in civpedia as one of UU, and it should get renamed to mercenary swordsman/man at arms or something like this.
-warrior really needs better icon
-I don't think that mercenary arms should be visible in civpedia as one of UU, and it should get renamed to mercenary swordsman/man at arms or something like this.
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