The guild is useful regardless. You get great buidlings and Wonders to boost production/mines etc. Resources are a bonus.
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The guild is useful regardless. You get great buidlings and Wonders to boost production/mines etc. Resources are a bonus.
esvath
Apprentice of Erebus
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Artisans guild's true powers are not "making you able to see metal resources in your BFC". They are:
- boosting metal income from your mines. Metal is required by 80% melee units, which usually are stronger than other unitcombats.
- metals are required to make metallic armours and weapons, which are also better than leather/wooden ones.
- armours/weapons unlocked by the guild is more efficient than those unlocked by military techs.
- adopting the guild open possibilities to increase your city's hammer's output.
- allowing your mines to discover resources. So, if you have hills around your capital, it is advisable to unlock Artisans guild. You will get metal resources sooner or later, be that from random map generator, from mines discovering metals or popping Great Engineers.
Patially agree. But the ressources ARE useful. In most games i only advance in one guild, while the other stay at low level for a long time. Artisan Guild would be a nice choise for such a 2nd or 3rd guild... sometimes. Especially if you dont want to focus on mines. Are there reasons not to show the resources?
esvath
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Mainly for flavour, deposits of metals and gems are not scattered on the ground, visible to the eyes, unlike games or grains and cattles.
- Flavour ok but players can see all specials ressources of any guild and tech, except all mining ressources. That's not normal.
- Players like to see where the ressources are before the tech, because it give them the possibility to planify where they will plant their next city. It's one of the core pleasure of the game.
- I think if we are on the land of the logic, a civ should now what is a gold natural depot, or copper, or even iron, as it's commun to use gold money, copper or iron tools. Mithril, maybe not, as it's a very rare metal, found in profound mines.
But exploiting them completely require the guild (using the ressource as strategic ressources, and exploiting the percentage bonus it give).
- On the player perspective, you should take guilds according to your situation. If you got some mana nodes, you can decide to go to Magic guild. If you gold interesting metal ressources, you can take Artisans guild first. Etc.
- Players like to see where the ressources are before the tech, because it give them the possibility to planify where they will plant their next city. It's one of the core pleasure of the game.
- I think if we are on the land of the logic, a civ should now what is a gold natural depot, or copper, or even iron, as it's commun to use gold money, copper or iron tools. Mithril, maybe not, as it's a very rare metal, found in profound mines.
But exploiting them completely require the guild (using the ressource as strategic ressources, and exploiting the percentage bonus it give).
- On the player perspective, you should take guilds according to your situation. If you got some mana nodes, you can decide to go to Magic guild. If you gold interesting metal ressources, you can take Artisans guild first. Etc.
Just a quick question: Am I the only one who feels that actually recon units are often the strongest? Disciple of Aeron + Poison I gives you +4 combat, lot's of first strikes, it's the category with the most special abilities, Mobility of 2 instead of 1, Poison Bomb allows you to be a pseudo-mage if you want that etc.
esvath
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Unit-wise, most civs will have melee units which can be the backbone of their empire; even Hippus has them. Kuriotates might uses Centaurs exclusively but Centaurs mostly use metals too. That is why imo melee units are generally more useful and powerful, which makes metals more precious.
About promotions, recons and disciple classes might have more fancy effects but Warlord for melee units is a solid option (25% second chance is like mini hero).
About promotions, recons and disciple classes might have more fancy effects but Warlord for melee units is a solid option (25% second chance is like mini hero).
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well, to be honest, I tink like Linvega.
Recon are some of the best ones... disciple of Aeron + poison is good + trapping + poison... + bard, in the same class.
I find the others are lacking in regard.
melee can be nice... but they are 1mvt... and the +2poison class.. is limited to defense discipline: kind of strange ... and not really useful for attacking.
comparatively, warlords is not really usefull I found out.
using a whole class just for that.. when you can get hero promotion at level 10.. is domageable.
maybe if warlord gave something else ?
Recon are some of the best ones... disciple of Aeron + poison is good + trapping + poison... + bard, in the same class.
I find the others are lacking in regard.
melee can be nice... but they are 1mvt... and the +2poison class.. is limited to defense discipline: kind of strange ... and not really useful for attacking.
comparatively, warlords is not really usefull I found out.
using a whole class just for that.. when you can get hero promotion at level 10.. is domageable.
maybe if warlord gave something else ?
esvath
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Ah, interesting!
If that's so, I'd say that melee and recon classes/promotions are alright. Different players use different unit types.
I tend to think disciples are alright as well. Their promotions maybe on the weaker side but that's because they have miracles and combatauras.
Mounted units are rather bland, imho, but their mobility makes them still valuable, I hope?
Archers are boring and I don't have any idea on how to improve them. Ljosalfar's archers are unique and rather stepping on the toes of melee and recon units, imo.
What do you think about unit types, their roles and the classes/promotions?
If that's so, I'd say that melee and recon classes/promotions are alright. Different players use different unit types.
I tend to think disciples are alright as well. Their promotions maybe on the weaker side but that's because they have miracles and combatauras.
Mounted units are rather bland, imho, but their mobility makes them still valuable, I hope?
Archers are boring and I don't have any idea on how to improve them. Ljosalfar's archers are unique and rather stepping on the toes of melee and recon units, imo.
What do you think about unit types, their roles and the classes/promotions?
I always take warlord for my meele units, its one of the best promotion imo. Agree Recon units are strong, but thats ok, IF every unit is useful. To asure that i would suggest to give ALL recon units city attack malus. Many have it alredy, but not all (e.g. Ranger for some reason?). I really like the "stone scissors paper" idea for many games: spearman are good vs mounted, mounted are good vs archer, etc maybe something can be done in this direction. Maybe give meele a bonus vs recon?
esvath
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Personally, I am still unconvinced about recon units' strength. They are suck when attacking cities and do not benefit from fortifications iirc. But that's maybe just my preference.
Yet, this makes me hesitant to boost melee by giving them +vs recon.
To be honest, I just play as the Doviello (and my melee units are so powerful despite Doviello's restriction on gears and no magical support), and thinking to make melee units lost their fortification bonus as well. But I guess many players will disagree with this?
Yet, this makes me hesitant to boost melee by giving them +vs recon.
To be honest, I just play as the Doviello (and my melee units are so powerful despite Doviello's restriction on gears and no magical support), and thinking to make melee units lost their fortification bonus as well. But I guess many players will disagree with this?
Ogi123
The End is the Beginning is the End
Recon units step on toes of cavalry mostly, both are mobile and have city attack penalty. IMHO:
-All recon units should have -25% city strength, not only city attack.All ofc still have they animal and beast bonus.
- All melee units should get +20/25% city attack.
-All archers -25% city attack but +25% city def .
-All infantry should benefit from terrain def bonuses.
-All cavalry should have +20/25% open terrain(flatland) attack.
This could differentiate them somewhat. Opinions?
-All recon units should have -25% city strength, not only city attack.All ofc still have they animal and beast bonus.
- All melee units should get +20/25% city attack.
-All archers -25% city attack but +25% city def .
-All infantry should benefit from terrain def bonuses.
-All cavalry should have +20/25% open terrain(flatland) attack.
This could differentiate them somewhat. Opinions?
I expect that you are right about that.
but from my point of view
it's just that when using melee or mounted I'm always stumped on what to chose. (vengeance for bard or for the aura-class... but all other promotions are not really useful - and sometimes the heal-while moving.. but only if I have high affinity spells) or assault : I find that I usually use champion (the one that give +20%str + chance of battle stance) or death knight.. none of the others (I may use magic knight... but only as a second discipline if I ever get as far in the levels.)
So I like horses for their mobility, and for death knight, but when I have recon units I'd rather have recons... losing the 1 mvt is worth it when you take into account that most early-mid game is wildlands (so recon has easier time with animals and mounted has same issue of city attack than recon) and you get access to +4str!.
and they have time to accumulate experience until the mid game, when city attacks are necessary.
by then, melee would be useful, but they are slow, and have less xp (couldn't feed on bards as much).. so I often don't use them.
for recon, I never have issues, all disciplines are good, some more than others, but they are good.
for disciple, I can also manage.
for Mages : a few "sage" for the towers / and the others are all : +%damage class or dragon . once per game I use the "+aura" class.
ranged... I found that there is no synergy on arcane archer and attacking (like for melee : the class that gives +2str is not linked to the attacking discipline);
I find that for archers, the support discipline+class is the best one. but then they become hard to level.
I think giving archers +% city attack could help them (their are few units that can attack despite there being walls !!)
I like the roll of archers beeing support units mostly, they can still finish wounded troops. 1-2 mounted can be skilled skirmish disciple to get fast horses for 4 movement raiding. Mayby even royal courir for 5 movement + mobility for 6! No skirmish can do that.
Sounds good. Plus Hill 25% hill defance for archer? Is that even possible?
Sounds good. Plus Hill 25% hill defance for archer? Is that even possible?
Why is that? No even half of the recon units have poison damage and most of them only have +1 or +2.
Ogi123
The End is the Beginning is the End
Recon unit and poison is problem of disciple of archeon class and poison promotion. Early game +4 str i rather strong.
After some more thought:
-Recon units should be good in difficult terrain, against animals/beasts and at scouting. Should be weak in cities and flatlands. So +50% vs animals/beast, ignores terrain movement cost and terrain defences, has sight of two. But it has large city penalty: -50% city strength? Classes/disciplines mostly around anti beast/animal work, scouting, difficult terrain assault/defence.
-Melee units should be good at taking cities. So +25% city attack or higher base str than other types of units(+2?). Promotions mostly centered around combat and survivability.
-Archers: city defence and stack support. Perhaps even collateral damage? If you grant them collateral, then they role changes from city defence and stack support, to collateral and stack support. Collateral damage should be relatively small. For example Archer S7, 20% max collateral to 2 or 3 units, 1 first strike, supports other non archer units in stack. I think I like such version better than static and rather boring only city defender. It gets them role outside city def, but doesn't invalidate siege weapons.
-Cavalry units: strong on flatland attack, poor at taking/defending cities although not as bad as recon. +25% flatlands attack, -25% city attack. They will be useful in unbroken ground charges witch is realistic I guess.
-Siege: Currently rather useless IMHO. At best you have cannon with 20str, against late game 30+ str units ranged bombardment is rather meh from my observation. So perhaps lower significantly they base str but made them also gain str from techs? something like 5str? Another problem is they have withdrawal chance... witch is useless since they have 0 attack.
After some more thought:
-Recon units should be good in difficult terrain, against animals/beasts and at scouting. Should be weak in cities and flatlands. So +50% vs animals/beast, ignores terrain movement cost and terrain defences, has sight of two. But it has large city penalty: -50% city strength? Classes/disciplines mostly around anti beast/animal work, scouting, difficult terrain assault/defence.
-Melee units should be good at taking cities. So +25% city attack or higher base str than other types of units(+2?). Promotions mostly centered around combat and survivability.
-Archers: city defence and stack support. Perhaps even collateral damage? If you grant them collateral, then they role changes from city defence and stack support, to collateral and stack support. Collateral damage should be relatively small. For example Archer S7, 20% max collateral to 2 or 3 units, 1 first strike, supports other non archer units in stack. I think I like such version better than static and rather boring only city defender. It gets them role outside city def, but doesn't invalidate siege weapons.
-Cavalry units: strong on flatland attack, poor at taking/defending cities although not as bad as recon. +25% flatlands attack, -25% city attack. They will be useful in unbroken ground charges witch is realistic I guess.
-Siege: Currently rather useless IMHO. At best you have cannon with 20str, against late game 30+ str units ranged bombardment is rather meh from my observation. So perhaps lower significantly they base str but made them also gain str from techs? something like 5str? Another problem is they have withdrawal chance... witch is useless since they have 0 attack.
esvath
Apprentice of Erebus
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Keep in mind that some of the civs are relying on non-melee units as their main troops. Thus, making recon/archer ineffective in cities will nerf those civs.
Melee:
Bannor
Mercurians
Khazad
Amurites
Grigori
Lanun
Dural
Clan of Embers
Infernals
Doviello
Calabim
Scion
Aristarkh
Mazatl
Aos Si
Mounted
Kuriotates
Hippus
Archer
Ljosalfar
Recon
Sidar
Austrin
Balseraphs
Svartalfar
Disciple
Elohim
Malakim
Illians
Something else
Luchuirp (golems)
Sheaim (their demonic army are mostly melee but they also rely on their recon and mages)
Melee:
Bannor
Mercurians
Khazad
Amurites
Grigori
Lanun
Dural
Clan of Embers
Infernals
Doviello
Calabim
Scion
Aristarkh
Mazatl
Aos Si
Mounted
Kuriotates
Hippus
Archer
Ljosalfar
Recon
Sidar
Austrin
Balseraphs
Svartalfar
Disciple
Elohim
Malakim
Illians
Something else
Luchuirp (golems)
Sheaim (their demonic army are mostly melee but they also rely on their recon and mages)
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