Maximizing production and bulbs

[adcarrymaokai]

As I am trying to improve my gameplay, I can't help but wonder why I can't break certain benchmarks in most of my culture and science games. After analyzing a bit, I have come to the conclusion that I am not managing my citizens and great people correctly (aside from not buying science buildings, but I think it's minor). Hence, I have a couple questions about doing that.

1. What are the tile priorities? Which tiles need to be worked early, mid, and late game? Do I grow capital to pop 3, switch to full production to build settlers? Do I switch to full-on food afterwards in a Tradition game? Which tiles do I work in my expos? Do I grow to pop 2 with unimproved grassland and then work a hill at pop 2, while building granary? I always feel like my early-game production sucks, and that puts me more and more behind in the production queue as I continue to go through eras.

2. What are the most optimal times to use great scientists, writers, or artists? I always thought that maximizing GW after winning the WF is best, but Acken mentioned that bulbing a writer for faster Rationalism-Secularism is more beneficial. Where do artists even come into play here? And with scientists, I always end up under-bulbing or over-bulbing techs. Do I save scientists only for the latest techs and research the cheapest ones first? Do I pull out a calculator and actually do the math to know exactly how much science I need to finish the Freedom SV bulb-rush?

I know it may seems like a lot of questions, but I think the answers are simple enough.

 

[enslingkorp]

1. For building Settlers, you have to check different combinations to find the quickest method. Settlers need food as well as production. Sometimes working a 3 food tile will produce the settler quicker than working a 2 hammer tile. I almost always build Settlers as soon as possible. 2 or 3 Scouts, a Monument, and then Settlers. The fastest way to get improved production is to have 4/5 Workers by the time you build your last Settler. Use the Workers to improve any tile that gives you Happiness and Production. Food is not so important until after you have researhed Divil Service.

2. Save all Great Scientists for one big push at the end, when they are worth the most science. Great Writers should be saved so they can fill the slots you want them. For example if you want to fill Oxford University. Great Artists shoud be used the same unless you are not doing Culture, in which case use them to bring a new Policy earlyer. I don't do the maths unlike some players but with practice you can setup a chain where you research 10 technologies in a short space of time.

The short answer is it depends a bit on the situation. But 1. does not. Always maximised production, as its what you use to make everything you need at the begining.

 

[Hans Tork]

1. For building Settlers, you have to check different combinations to find the quickest method. Settlers need food as well as production. Sometimes working a 3 food tile will produce the settler quicker than working a 2 hammer tile. I almost always build Settlers as soon as possible. 2 or 3 Scouts, a Monument, and then Settlers. The fastest way to get improved production is to have 4/5 Workers by the time you build your last Settler. Use the Workers to improve any tile that gives you Happiness and Production. Food is not so important until after you have researhed Divil Service.

2. Save all Great Scientists for one big push at the end, when they are worth the most science. Great Writers should be saved so they can fill the slots you want them. For example if you want to fill Oxford University. Great Artists shoud be used the same unless you are not doing Culture, in which case use them to bring a new Policy earlyer. I don't do the maths unlike some players but with practice you can setup a chain where you research 10 technologies in a short space of time.

The short answer is it depends a bit on the situation. But 1. does not. Always maximised production, as its what you use to make everything you need at the begining.

1.I always thought settlers depended only on production. I have to check up on that. I starve my city to get faster settlers.

2. I always use GW for the culture boost at the very end when I have a few cultural CS allied and the WF/hermitage bonus. I think it is sub optimal in <300 SV to use GW for great works. As for GA I always tend to use them after the I have got the Freedom 2nd tenet that gives longer golden ages.
P.S. Even in CV I only use 2 great writers for works and use the rest for faster Aesthetic finisher.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Speaking of the Monument.. in the recent games, I have completely skipped it when going for Tradition. Generally, hoping for a nice ruin, but not sure if that's the best strategy. But I have mostly played Domination games recently, so going back to peaceful I start noticing changes.

In Liberty starts, I feel like Monument is almost necessary to start with, as even scout->monument gives a very late settler policy, but I also like scouting for ruins early on and meeting city-states for the gold.

As for GA I always tend to use them after the I have got the Freedom 2nd tenet that gives longer golden ages.

That's why I am wondering: is it worth to wait until all the boosts to different great people, or is it better to start snowballing earlier?

 

[Blatc]

I've been going over a lot of the same questions.
If you're able, buying science buildings can make a big difference. The question is how to get enough gold and if you fit any RAs into the mix.

Tiles
Early game, tiles that have 2 food and more (3rd food or production) are priority. Focus on food and production; earn your gold by selling resources and scouting.
Balance is key. Project ahead to when happiness will become an issue. A mistake I've made on some maps is working too many grassland food tiles and little to no production for too long; by mid-game, I'd have a good size city but hardly any buildings and not enough gold to purchase anything.

I used to semi-ignore World's Fair, aiming for the 350 mark, but now realize how valuable winning it can be, along with bulbing ~3 Great Writers at peak culture. You can use a Great Artist for a golden age during WF to help you win and 1-2 during your subsequent bonus phase; ideally, you're in GA for all 20 turns.

I can see bulbing GW for Secularism if you've got some cultural CS allies. As with buying science buildings, ideally you always want to get to your next science increase ASAP and be ready to utilize it (ex. have enough population to work the University, rather than buying one for a 5 pop expo).

I still struggle with bulbing but am paying more attention to overflow. A good question would be how many turns out from projected victory do we start bulbing GS? For example, you went Freedom, have 5 GS saved, will get 1-2 more naturally, 2 from faith, and 2 from hubble for 10-11 total.

 

[Blatc]

1.I always thought settlers depended only on production. I have to check up on that. I starve my city to get faster settlers.

2. I always use GW for the culture boost at the very end when I have a few cultural CS allied and the WF/hermitage bonus. I think it is sub optimal in <300 SV to use GW for great works. As for GA I always tend to use them after the I have got the Freedom 2nd tenet that gives longer golden ages.
P.S. Even in CV I only use 2 great writers for works and use the rest for faster Aesthetic finisher.

The food you work is converted into production. Play around with the tiles and you'll see that sometimes a high food tile actually gets you 1 more production than a weak production tile.

One thing I noticed going for a fast SV on Spain map was that, if you wait for tier 2 Freedom policy, you may end up wasting 1-2 great artists. Whether or not you have the +50% wonder certainly factors in.

 

[phillipwyllie]

Without a late game screenshot/ save it's hard to judge where you may be going wrong. I suspect that you are neglecting growth in favour of production. In this game Science is King and that is proportional to you population. The exception is early game when you want settlers out quick, and a contested wonder.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Actually, another question: how do people use trade routes? I used to play tall Tradition and send all routes to the capital, but now I wonder if they should be distributed and mixed: for example, a rich of food city on grassland should, perhaps, receive production route, while a city in the hills obviously get food.

And is it worth to send trade routes to city-states for influence?

 

[vadalaz]

1. For Tradition games I often stagnate at pop 2 by either building a settler if I have 2 hills or two 2f-1h tiles to work, or just working a hill and a 2 food tile. With 2-3 scouts there's a good chance you'll hit a pop ruin anyway. A lot of the early game depends on your worker steals and ruins, so it's hard to predict things. But personally I always play as if I'm 100% certain I'll hit perfect ruins and get enough workers, and then adapt to the situation if things don't work out quite that well.

2. IMO how you use your scientists in an SV depends on your endgame bpt. For an average 4-city tradition game I think you want to use just one pre-Plastics (maybe two if you get both LToP and PT) and bulb the rest in the end, since your bpt is probably going to be in the 1100-1300 range. In a wide game (or tall on an exceptionally good map) I'd use GSs more liberally, as it's more likely you'll just end up with 1-2 extra in the end if you save them all.

Not sure how I feel about popping a GW in Renaissance, I think I prefer using one in Industrial era for quicker Free Thought or Mercantilism. I like to pop a GA as soon as I enter Industrial era, and then a GW 8 turns later. You get maximum CS culture at Industrial, and the production bonus helps to get schools/factories/artillery/Big Ben etc faster. I don't like buying schools as I prefer to spend gold on CSs for WC control and culture/faith.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

I don't like buying schools as I prefer to spend gold on CSs for WC control and culture/faith.

I used to dump 1k gold on city-states, but now I am trying to just tryhard for their quests. Not sure what is more important, though: saving money for science buildings or allying cs (self-produced culture is scarce in a science game).

Currently playing DCL 30 - the Ottomans without reloads, even though Indonesia beat me to the Sistine Chapel by 1 turn. Trying to improve like that.

 

[claudiupb]

1. What are the tile priorities? Which tiles need to be worked early, mid, and late game? Do I grow capital to pop 3, switch to full production to build settlers? Do I switch to full-on food afterwards in a Tradition game? Which tiles do I work in my expos? Do I grow to pop 2 with unimproved grassland and then work a hill at pop 2, while building granary? I always feel like my early-game production sucks, and that puts me more and more behind in the production queue as I continue to go through eras.

Focus on growth and production in second place but be aware of the happiness cap, there is no sense in growing fast if you can't afford it now or in the immediate future; you might be better working some hammers and getting more buildings faster. Prioritize high yield tiles first, it's better to work a cow with 3f 2h than a 4f farm. If that 1 food really contributes and lets you grow 1 turn faster, than it's probably situational but in most cases still working the cow can be better.

For tradition growth is even more emphasized, you don't really have many buildings to construct early game anyway so just grow grow grow. For liberty you also need to grow but of course there is a limit for each city, so try to grow as fast as you can to that limit, then switch to production.

Even before civil service working farms can be a benefit, if you have farms and they help you grow faster work them. Extra pop means extra yields, so in the long run you will be getting your hammers back.

If you have the patience try various combinations each turn, see what happens if you switch from a farm to a pasture, or from a pasture to a mine, etc. Sometimes you grow in the same number of turns but finish your project faster. Or vice versa, sometimes you can grow faster without delaying your project.

Early game for the expos it really depends on a lot of factors: do you have the happiness to grow them, do you need to finish the library (or other building) fast? You need to plan ahead and see what is best, because there is no sense in stomping growth to get granary fast and then getting the library way before you are able to build the NC and not having anything useful to do later. If you have the happiness and are in no hurry to finish your build queue I'd say grow first.

Ultimately it's all about timing regardless the city or era, if you have the happiness and need some things done at a certain time, try to balance the hammer/food ratio so that you finish that in time and grow as fast as possible. If you don't need that right away, go for the fastest growth. If you don't have the happiness then there is no sense in growing, so focus on hammers and later even on gold (the buffs to gold are pretty sweet once you have markets and banks).

If you are unhappy for a couple of turns it's probably better to switch to production during that time, since any excess food is divided by 4.

 

[CubuS]

About the settler I'd usually go for it at size 3 and then go 100% on hammer, but messing around a bit to see if there's a better alternative, which there usually isn't.

Since your city cannot be reduced in size while producing settler you can go everything on hammers while it is being produced and will suffer no penalty if you start the settler as soon as the city hits a new size, in this case size 3. The first 4 excess foods is converted to hammers, but that also means you need to have excess food and I find it rare that it is worth having excess food when you in this case can go 100% hammers and ignore food totally.

 

[beetle]

A good question would be how many turns out from projected victory do we start bulbing GS? For example, you went Freedom, have 5 GS saved, will get 1-2 more naturally, 2 from faith, and 2 from hubble for 10-11 total.

I think these are reasonable numbers, and is a good example of why you might have been better off bulbing one or two GS after Public Schools have been online for eight (or is it ten) turns. Rather than trying to count back from turn of projected victory, it would be simpler to just always be sure that your timing for bulbing is very good.

So long as you have been working the slots and have 5+ turns to go on the current tech, you are at a local maximum and will not hit the overflow cap. You will also be in position to unlock some key techs (like plastics) faster.

The alternative is sitting on your GS until Labs have been online for eight turns, and at that point the only brake to worry about is the overflow cap. But that is a pretty serious constraint! I find that if I have 5-6 GS on deck at that point, I run out of time to use them all (because of the pair from Hubble and the pair I can faith purchase). When you are at 1K bpt, those first bulbs get you a tech and half, so you end up waiting because of the overflow. I find myself working on an SV but using GS on Internet and Globalization because all the SS techs are done! So now I try to not let that happen!

Don't Golden Ages also boost science? On that assumption, lately I have been bulbing one GS per GA figuring again, that I am at a local maximum. No need to break out the calculator!