Mercenaries + Mines of Gal-Dur

[westamastaflash]

I am playing a Monarch game with Hannah. I used Classical Start, so the issue may be lessened with Ancient start. Tectonics map, Large, 19 civs, 60% water. Normal Speed. Used 800 gold advanced start (so no religious techs would pop before the beginning). Oh, and No Tech Trading, so the AI may be more gimped than usual.

Here's the scenario.

Turn 240, me being a lazy builder, building settlers and thanes of kilmorph to travel to distant shores and build more ciites. Only 2 warriors defending each of my main cities. As I founded Runes, I've got a kickass gold city pulling in 30 gpt.

Tablets of bambur pops a great engineer, so I wait until I get Arete, and pop the Mines of Gal-Dur.

Around this time, Charadon, my happy Runes-loving Barbarian neighbor, decides that I'm not pious enough and assaults the outlying city nearest to him. My poor Malestrom mage is destroyed by an onslaught of wolves, and the city falls.

I then switch to 100% gold and proceed to build a kickass army of Mercenaries with Iron Weapons (7 str), Commando (raiders trait), and Shield of Faith.

My switch between having no army to having the best army on the planet happened in a span of about 10-15 turns. > 400 gold per turn coming in meant 3-4 mercs / turn. Charadon is now dying at the hands of my mercenaries. Oh, and I don't even need to leave part of my army back to defend my newly conquered cities, since i can immediately expand the guild and buy a few fresh str 7 defenders with the gold from capturing the city.

Is it just me, or are the mercenaries really, really powerful? I mean, a Str 7 unit for 120 gold! The gold cost to rush a champion is much higher than that, isn't it?

Or is the problem the Mines of Gal-Dur, and the fact that Iron Weapons earlier than anyone else is really, really powerful?

Or both?

 

[vivictius]

Its a combination of the mines, mercs, and money. Sticking with kilmorph gives you the money but you miss out on all the other advantages from the other religions.

 

[westamastaflash]

Right. But are Mercenaries, for 120 gold, overpowered compared to Champions? As Lanun, I build Boarding Parties, which are Str 5 and cost 120 hammers. Are mercenaries, at a cost of 120 gold, overpowered in this regard? The don't cause war weariness either, so you can toss them willy nilly at the enemy with no regard for their lives...

 

[Pyr0mancer]

Mercs are powerful, but the main strength really is the Iron Weapons that early. Otherwise they're decent but not great, mainly (IMO) because they start with 0 xp compared to everything else at least having 1-2 levels from free XP. An Iron Weapons Axeman would be 6 str + 20% (Combat I) = roughly 7.2 strength.

In general, Mercs + RoK works quite well, but what's REALLY killer though is Hippus with RoK and Guild of the Nine.

Oh and Boarding parties... meh. I rather dislike them. I prefer champions over mercs mainly because of the free XP from civics and such, since the first level is at least a +20% strength for an effective increase of 1.2 for no metals, 1.4 for Bronze, 1.6 for Iron, and 2 for Mithril. Promotions are very important in FfH, and having enough free XP for say, shock-promoted melee right out of the gate makes a HUGE difference.

 

[westamastaflash]

Hannah just makes so much money though. That +1 food from coast and ocean is so powerful...

 

[Zechnophobe]

Mercs are powerful, but the main strength really is the Iron Weapons that early.

He said turn 240+, how exactly is that 'soo early'?

Only time I can recall making the best of the Mines was via the Chirp, because I had a great engineer in my pocket. But that is pretty civ specific.

 

[westamastaflash]

Turn 240 on Classical Start (which starts at Turn 90, I believe). And no AIs had Iron Weapons. A Str 7 unit for 120 gold vs an AI means that the AI shall die.

 

[kenneth]

7 str mercenies are not exactly strong to boast about, but if the opponent has no iron, then it probably be quite easy unless the ai stacks archers which has a decent chance to win in the cities, which they will quite often.

Champions are 8 str at the start and usually you can add combat 1 promotion from civics, so they are around 9.6 str, enough to kill most archers in cities with a high chance.

If i was any other civilization running at 100% gold, i could probably pull off the same thing as you did by spamming recruit mercenary. That being said, i believe 120 for mercenaries is quite a good deal, given that they can produced instantly(time factor) and have decent str. It is extremely useful if you need to build a large army in a very short time for defense/offense.

 

[Ksi]

You were running a specialist build, it's not overpowered.

 

[westamastaflash]

If i was any other civilization running at 100% gold, i could probably pull off the same thing as you did by spamming recruit mercenary. That being said, i believe 120 for mercenaries is quite a good deal, given that they can produced instantly(time factor) and have decent str. It is extremely useful if you need to build a large army in a very short time for defense/offense.

Which is why I think they are overpowered. Lanun's Champion (boarding party) is Str 7 with Iron weapons as well.

The "time factor" is what makes them very, very powerful.

I could, if I wanted, build a warrior (1-2 turns in developed cities), then upgrade them to a champion for 180 gold or so, only after I get Smelting then Iron Working (lots of beakers there). My point was that an Instant Army that uses Iron Weapons is really powerful, considering that no one else can use mercs if you get the guild. Even Drown with iron weapons are str 6 (5 + 1 unholy), and that is assuming that you're getting 2 religions here, which if you are pushing hard for WotE and then Currency you probably won't do.

 

[rocklikeafool]

I really think it's a jus an example of reactin well to a potentially bad situation. Hell, most people don't build the most powerful army in the world in 10-15 turns. Well done, my friend.

 

[GePap]

Which is why I think they are overpowered. Lanun's Champion (boarding party) is Str 7 with Iron weapons as well.

The "time factor" is what makes them very, very powerful.

I could, if I wanted, build a warrior (1-2 turns in developed cities), then upgrade them to a champion for 180 gold or so, only after I get Smelting then Iron Working (lots of beakers there). My point was that an Instant Army that uses Iron Weapons is really powerful, considering that no one else can use mercs if you get the guild. Even Drown with iron weapons are str 6 (5 + 1 unholy), and that is assuming that you're getting 2 religions here, which if you are pushing hard for WotE and then Currency you probably won't do.

Well, you got currency first, and beat anyone else to building the Mines, plus you had the excess money to buy and maintain all those mercenaries. Why shouldn't you be able to build such an army then? Of course it ios powerful, but then to get this situation, you need to set up the conditions to do so. It is certainly not some overpowered cheat .

 

[kenneth]

If this strat was really that overpowered, you would have seen people on forums clamouring for it to be removed.

I would rather build a decent army and setting my research rate to 80-100% at all times to maintain my tech. Using gold buy mercenaries, who are like second grade champions probably only good in desperate situations where you are really short of troops.

But in the case of lanun, probably mercenies are a good alternative since they have lanun boarding party, with special ablitiles which are useless in most situations and -1 to str.

 

[slowcar]

i use mercs for defense in newly conquered cities mainly, as an assault troop they are too weak as they have no promotions.

 

[Demus]

mercs are pretty powerful, but the civ for this would be the hippus rather than the lanun. Their mounted mercs are awesome.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Yes, Mounted Mercs kick ass, man. Plus, they got cool graphics. Never really liked the graphics of the regular Mercs.

 

[westamastaflash]

Yes, Mounted Mercs kick ass, man. Plus, they got cool graphics. Never really liked the graphics of the regular Mercs.

Yeah they look like spanish conquistadors.

I'd really like Mercenaries to be a bit more fleshed out, and to remove the "mercenary" unit completely and perhaps replace with a Promotion that costs gold / turn?

Perhaps an actual interface that is easier to use than the one in Rhye's and Fall of Civ... or just a % chance when hiring...?

Just thinking out loud...

30% Regular Melee Unit of your tech level (Warrior, Axe/Sword, Champion).
20% Regular Archer Unit of your tech level (Archer / Longbow)
10% Regular Recon Unit of your tech level (Scout, Hunter, Assassin, Ranger).
20% Regular Mounted Unit of your tech level (Horseman / Chariot / Horse Archer).
5% Regular Siege Unit of your tech level
5% Adept with 1 random mana promo
5% Random Disciple (if you have Religion Tech)
2% Mage (if you have Sorcery)
2% Priest of a founded Religion (if you have Priesthood and Religion Tech)
1% UU of another Civilization or Religion (fawn, solider of kilmorph) (if you or they have the tech for it)

Naturally no National Units.

Perhaps a small chance for a random race -
Human / Your Race - 94%
Elf / Human (if you are elf) - 2%
Dwarf / Human (if you are dwarf) - 2%
Orc / Human (if you are orc) - 2%

Also, I think that when a Civ researches currency they ought to get the chance to at least pay for the Guild to be expanded to one of their cities... perhaps a free mercenary?

I got the Dwarven Cannon from the Guild once. Oh my was that awesome or was that awesome...

Well, thats my thoughts. Perhaps a neat ModMod...

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

I for one like mercs as they are.

To get the mines/merc combo requires sever dedication and then, your army in a can relies heavily on your pockets.

Yes, you can set your research to 0% to keep pumping them out, however, against (metaphoricly) the ashen veil or any larger civ focusing on tech, youll fall behind in a handful of turns and soon your army will be inferior.

I recently played a game testing this strat, I was able to raise a hefty stack of mercs, but ended up technologically screwed over when I had to replace my casualties. After vasalizing Auric Aulvin (taking 4 cities, leaving 5), Carditha Lorda (3 cities, 2 settlements, leaving 2 sets), and wiping out Hyborem completely, I squared off against Garrim Gyr and Basium.

Having next to nil cash after keeping my army in force and buying up techs to keep in line with the others, I thought my little merc army that could would be able to roll the 7 luch and 2 Mercur cities. I was wrong.

A golem stack jacked the mines of gal right out of my empire after my 15~ mercs got beat back by angels (I had the RoK hero with them. Ampheridan?) Luckily, the angel stacks were stalled long enough by Auric/Kurios that I could tap the non-viable iron source to my south (out of crosses, didn't think Id need the iron) and raise a new merc army. I managed to beat them back by the skin of my teeth, however a good chunk of my cities were reclaimed by Auric and everything else was pillaged/pop fought back into the classical age. After killing the absurd angel stacks and the golems, I was able to anhilate the Mercurs and vasselize the Luchurip, but I very nearly was defeated.

The closest point was after losing my production city, my holy city and the mines of gal-dur. However, the luchrip over extended themselves and my network of roads let me exploit weakened lone stacks and revolting cities. As for the mercurs, they were to lethargic to exploit my horribly weak defenses and economic crash, so I was able to build up suitable merc stacks.

It was after vasselizing garrim that I saved, and have my sights now set on my neighbor Ethne the White, who despite being the biggest and most intimidating nation, is already assaulted by afew others.

Pretty powerful, but with easily explotable weaknesses.

*Note: I was playing as perpentach, during my campaigns I luckilly pulled charismatic during my earlier wars, then raiders when alot of my empire was captured. As a dedicated agressive/raiders/charismatic/financial leader, mercs would likely be more powerful, but, 2 cents either way.

 

[MalkutX]

It's not mercs that are overpowered, it's iron! No, it really is! A heavy metal that forms from stellar nucleosynthesis? The sixth most common element in the universe? Malleable, strong, and ferromagnetic? C'MON! How can something that ridiculously useful actually exist? Don't blame FFH for something that's physics' fault!

Iron: unbalanced IRL! Someone fix it!

 

[Darksaber1]

It's not mercs that are overpowered, it's iron! No, it really is! A heavy metal that forms from stellar nucleosynthesis? The sixth most common element in the universe? Malleable, strong, and ferromagnetic? C'MON! How can something that ridiculously useful actually exist? Don't blame FFH for something that's physics' fault!

Iron: unbalanced IRL! Someone fix it!

You know, I just can't resist:

“ Now it[Iron] is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have developed purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the iron is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have developed by chance. It proves that You do exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore, he goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.