[MH1] - Dutch NEED Discounts!

[Mikehendi]

MH1 - Dutch NEED Discounts!

This is the first of a series of SG's I'm planning to play, with variable settings, custom rules, and even cooked maps. For this first one, I'll keep things simple. Just a normal speed, fractal map, monarch difficulty, no huts/events. Before I start mocking other civilizations, in my first SG I thought I'd better mock my own people first (I'm Dutch), so let's get it over with

We'll be playing as William of Orange, fearless leader of the Dutch. As we all know, all dutch people love cheese, walk on wooden shoes, have a mill in their backyards between the tulips, and most of all: We're greedy. We are lousy tippers in restaurants, and we must ALWAYS haggle about the price of things. A dutch man isn't satisfied unless he feels he's gotten every discount he could possibly get.

So, here are the main rules:

1. We can never research, bulb, trade for or in any other way obtain a tech of which we don't know ALL prerequisites for.
2. We must win by launching the space ship.

And the other rules decided upon:

3. We may not adopt state property.
4. On non-recourse hill tiles, ONLY windmills are allowed.
5. We may not build workshops
6. In the city where Ironworks is planned, rules 4 and 5 do not apply (all improvements are allowed)


Some clarifications (I'm sure more questions will rise up which I hadn't foreseen yet):
- Knowing a prerequisite to a tech decreases the cost of that tech by.. 20(?) percent. Knowing 2 prerequisites decreases the cost by 40(?) percent, and so on. So, in order to get maximum Dutchlike discount, every prereq must be known before obtaining the tech. (If you aren't Dutch and ever wondered why The Wheel always takes so long to research, now you know )
- The internet is probably off limits, since we auto-lose when 2 civs beeline the same tech we don't know the prereqs for

Some basic initial thoughts:
- Obviously, beelining techs is almost impossible!
- Some important techs are very hard to obtain reasonably early, for instance writing (need Fish/TW/AG/Pot + Hunt/AH + myst/med/poly/ph), and Civil service (needs both COL and Feudalism)

Settings:

Spoiler :

.

The start:



The warrior isn't in the greatest position ever. On the plus side, at least having to research hunting before AH won't be for nothing.

Starting techs:



Let's beeline writing for cheap creative libraries and... oh, wait...



I'm a monarch-emperor player myself, and I'm looking for 2 to 4 (maybe 5?) players, preferably (prince)/monarch/emperor/(immortal)-level players to try and pull this one off.

I was thinking of a roster playing something like 20-15-15-10-10-10-10ish turns, but when people start signing up, this could be changed if the team wishes so. Also, additional rules could be implemented, like must win by space, or must reach future tech (and first) before winning.

Standard etiquette applies. However, it's the first time I'm hosting a SG, so if I'm off limits or doing something that is considered bad etiquette, please point it out or correct me, as I might not be aware of it.
Civ version is BTS, patch 3.19, no MOD needed (but is playable with BUG integrated in the game instead of a loadable MOD)

So, who's interested?


The Team

1 Cam_H - 20 turns
2 Norvin Green - 15 turns
3 Sengir - 15 turns
4 Pholkhero - 10 turns
5 Mike Hendi - 10 turns



Note:
You can play a few more turns, or a few less if you reach a decision point
You've 48 hours to post a "got it", 48 hours to play and post a report, unless you ask for more time, you will be skipped.
If you can't play, ask for a skip or swap before it is your turn

View attachment MH1 - Dutch NEED Discounts! BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

Heh with IO4, this pretty much completes the whole bunch of Dutch stereotypes, doesn't it?

 

[Cam_H]

Alrighty ... I'll play if you'll take me.

I take it we're going Hunting > Animal Husbandry then? Sounds fine.

 

[Norvin_Green]

I'd like to sign up.

@Mikehendi - your picture links seem to be broken.

 

[Mikehendi]

Alrighty ... I'll play if you'll take me.

I take it we're going Hunting > Animal Husbandry then? Sounds fine.

You're in! Everybody is welcome!
Hunting - AH with workboat-worker start seems the right thing to do

I'd like to sign up.

@Mikehendi - your picture links seem to be broken.

Welcome to the team! Broken, really? They're working for me over here. Anybody else has problems seeing them?

===

Well, I think we can start playing then. Signing up is still possible, as long as the roster hasn't yet had a full cycle.

Are you guys ok with the rules? Any additional variant rules? Is the difficulty level ok? Personally, I'd like having to win by space, while having to tech the full tree, or is that to much?

What level do you normally play?

PS My brother started playing this map in private single player, and he said the start might be too strong for this variant. I say we play the first round, and if the team feel he's right, we reroll another map. But let's check it out first!

 

[Norvin_Green]

Pics are up now. Perhaps photobucket was down. Who knows. I normally play emperor (and lose regularly enough). From the looks of the settings you didn't check off "Lock Modified Assets" which means if we wanted we could still change the level or speed (though I like epic)

 

[Cam_H]

(a.) I'd start playing and put a big 'welcome sign' in the opening post asking for more players to join the roster, and if it's just the three of us, then that's OK by me.

(b.) The rule(s) don't look particularly harsh to me, but I've not previously played with this variant, so I couldn't swear 'on a stack of Bibles' that it will be a breeze. I was thinking that we can mix it up a bit more by emphasising Windmills somehow as a minor theme variant, such as we can only Mine/Quarry resource tiles on Hills (that we don't settle cities on) and all other/generic Hills to be improved only with a Windmill (no Mines, no Cottages, no Lumbermills). Windmills can be replaced by Mines if we uncover resources under them (e.g. Coal, Aluminium).

(c.) I like the idea of having a pre-determined victory target, as it brings better focus to the game.

(d.) The start we have has 'the Cow glitch', so I'd prefer that you re-rolled a new map anyway.

(e.) I'd probably prefer to step up the difficulty, but if you're not comfortable with Emperor or Immortal then I have no issue with Monarch.

(f.) I play on Immortal, but I usually play peacefully on this level after I take out one neighbour, and almost invariably end up going for Culture or Space (with the help of The Internet).

(g.) If we go with Epic speed, then I'd suggest turnsets of 15 (after the first 2 or 3). If Normal speed, either 10 or 15 (after the first 2 or 3).

 

[pholkhero]

lurker's comment:
cam ~ what's the "cow" glitch?

 

[Cam_H]

As in What is the "cow glitch"? you mean?

The map places tribes in spots so their capitals are comparatively food rich. In its calulations it includes Cows on Plains as a food resource (which at 3 with a Pasture ain't that great) that in effect reduces our chances of getting more generous food tiles in our capital's BFC. We do admittedly also have the Crabs resource, so it's not too bad, but the start does seem pretty -light. I'm not sure, but it looks like there could be Floodplains to the south of the Settler from the screenshot (?).

No need to lurk ... join in pholkhero! Join in!

 

[Mikehendi]

No need to lurk ... join in pholkhero! Join in!

What he said

(a.)

(b.) The rule(s) don't look particularly harsh to me, but I've not previously played with this variant, so I couldn't swear 'on a stack of Bibles' that it will be a breeze. I was thinking that we can mix it up a bit more by emphasising Windmills somehow as a minor theme variant, such as we can only Mine/Quarry resource tiles on Hills (that we don't settle cities on) and all other/generic Hills to be improved only with a Windmill (no Mines, no Cottages, no Lumbermills). Windmills can be replaced by Mines if we uncover resources under them (e.g. Coal, Aluminium).

Normally I frequently rely on beelining techs (Civil Service, Rifling) which are all hard to get when you need all prereqs (and all prereqs of the prereqs, and so on). I believe this will seriously hamper us. For instance, the best or maybe even only oppertunity for a war might be the early game, as BW, IW and HBR are unafected tech choices.

I like the windmill rule, it's very thematic (why didn't I think of that ) and it will seriously limit our early game production for an extra challenge.

(c.) I like the idea of having a pre-determined victory target, as it brings better focus to the game.

Shall we go for a space race then? Seems the right choice since we have to research a whole bunch of extra techs and our production is limited. Well, except for SP workshops then. How about no state property? Corporations seem much more fitting for the dutch.

Maybe even ban SP ánd workshops ánd mines (except maybe for one city (with Ironworks)), and try to get our production from watermills and Mining Inc?

(d.) The start we have has 'the Cow glitch', so I'd prefer that you re-rolled a new map anyway.

Well, it also has crabs, and that tile indeed looks like a floodplain, so that's +8 food at size 3 if we farm the FP, which is not stellar or so, but definitely no unworkable situation. And, with the new windmill variant, production here seems OKish, with marble, cow and forested fur giving 10 hammers. Alternatively, we could settle ON the marble, giving us a 3 hammer city tile

Do you still want to reroll? And how about you, norvin? I'd like to give it a shot.

(e.) I'd probably prefer to step up the difficulty, but if you're not comfortable with Emperor or Immortal then I have no issue with Monarch.

With the new and improved challenges I'd rather stay at monarch, but if I get more emperor votes, then we'll move up.


For quickness, if both of you would copy paste the message below, and give your preferences, I'll follow that and then we can get this game started!

Preferred rules:


Only windmills allowed (on hills), except on recourses / no limits in production
VC must be space race / No restriction or something else (please fill in then)
No state property / all is good
No workshops at all / No workshops except for one city / all is good
Monarch / Emperor
Reroll map/ Try this map
Normal / Epic
More variant rules and/or settings? --> ......

 

[Cam_H]

A follow on issue I suppose is when we acquire (flip / capture / be given) rival / enemy cities with Mines (and now possibly Workshops) in their workable terrain, do we have to then pillage / replace them? Or is it only Dutch Workers who are not allowed to build Mines on non-resource Hills?

I'm OK with your suggestions above, although unsure of the reference to Watermills as these can only be built on flat land:

• Only windmills allowed (on Hills), except on resourses / no limits in production
• VC must be space race / No restriction or something else (please fill in then)
• No state property / all is good
• No workshops at all / No workshops except for one city / all is good ... (I'm happy enough to try to work with this variant, but don't mind any of the options)
• Monarch / Emperor
• Reroll map/ Try this map ... (Probably I'd reroll, but I'm not too fussed going with what's there)

 

[Mikehendi]

You're right about the watermills, that probably slipped in while thinking about the "no workshops" rule. Late game watermills are also pretty good for production, but as they cannot be infinitely spammed like workshops, I thought they were OK (And here in Holland watermills are also a reasonably common sight, so they fit the theme)

I messed that thought up in writing the rules as you pointed out , so I edited the post.

Tonight I'll edit the opening post to invite more players, rewrite the rules and put the save up.
If norvin doesn't object to the vurrent settings, we can start playing from tonight on then.


Roster:

Cam_H - Up
Norvin Green - On Deck
Sengir
OPEN
Mike Hendi - Celebrating the last days of his Holiday!

Are you fine with going first, Cam_H?

 

[Sengir]

I'll bite.

• Only windmills allowed (on Hills), except on resourses / no limits in production
• VC must be space race / No restriction or something else (please fill in then)
• No state property / all is good
• No workshops at all / No workshops except for one city / all is good
• Monarch / Emperor
• Reroll map/ Try this map

 

[Norvin_Green]

Only windmills allowed (on hills), except on resources / no limits in production
VC must be space race / No restriction or something else (please fill in then)
No state property / all is good
No workshops at all / No workshops except for one city / all is good
Monarch / Emperor
Reroll map/ Try this map
Normal / Epic

Honestly, I don't care all that much so whatever the group decides is fine with me.

Mikehendi, once the rules are decided perhaps you could edit your first post so that they are easy to find. This way a knucklehead like me can check the variant before playing a turnset and mining everything in sight or bulbing philosophy!

 

[Mikehendi]

Ok, I've edited the first post, changes are Bold or Italian, so you can quickly look them up.

I've kept speed on normal, to avoid having to go in WB and do all sorts of editing, it would be hard to not get any information (mapwise or civwise) while editing.

The save has been included in the first post, so let's roll!

Cam_H's up for 20ish turns!

EDIT: I've added Sengir to the roster. Welcome to the team!

 

[Cam_H]

Righty-o, off we go!

The proposed plan:

Looks as though SSW of the settling spot is Floodplains. I feel that Settle-in-Place is our best bet, although as noted in Mike's graphic, the computer (who knows best) is seducing us to settle on the Marble Hill.

Hunting > Animal Husbandry

Work Boat > Worker

Warrior travels in an arc in a counter-clockwise / anti-clockwise direction, with a view to identifying good settling spots.​

Problems with any of the above?

 

[Mikehendi]

I like settling in place. The river will give us fresh water, a few river tiles and possibly instant trade routes with our second city if a good spot is located on the same river.

Also we seem to have a forest-spam start, but the tile 2w1n is empty, indicating a (strategic?) recourse. (This also applies to the tile 2e1s, but we'll have that one anyway)
2s is a hill tile as well, I don't know if it's forested).

Some general thoughts:
To all team members, please go into the tech tree screen before selecting a tech to research, so we don't accidentally research something we're not supposed to.

Also, don't chop trees from forested hills, as we cannot improve these early on. Also try to avoid roading unforested hills to encourage forest spread. 3h plains hills tiles and 1f2h Grass hill/plains plains tiles will be most of our production, aside from specials.


PS Cam_H, Got the save?

 

[Norvin_Green]

As to accidentally researching a tech - I think it will be even more important than in a normal SG to post a PPP before playing (like Cam_H) did so that other team members can do a double-check prior to the round being played.
SIP sounds good. Good luck Cam_H!

 

[Mikehendi]

A follow on issue I suppose is when we acquire (flip / capture / be given) rival / enemy cities with Mines (and now possibly Workshops) in their workable terrain, do we have to then pillage / replace them? Or is it only Dutch Workers who are not allowed to build Mines on non-resource Hills?

I favor the "pure" variant, not being allowed to work those tiles until we have had a worker replace the improvement for a proper dutch one! If this is too much MM (probably), we can also WB the improvements out as soon as the captured cities come out of revolt. On second thought, just WB them out if it becomes too much of a hassle (no need to check every city every turn too see if it is not working a mine or workshop after growing).

 

[Sengir]

I'd SIP as well, as it has fresh water, whereas the marble hill doesn't.