Millenia vs. Civ VI

blackbutterfly

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So who tried out Millenia on Steam's NextFest?

It's like a better version of Old World. Or a poorer version of HUMANKIND.
Not very Civ like TBH besides having culture, technology, governments, nations (soz, civs), production/food/etc (FIMS), units and movements.

I've only played 20 mins of the game, so these are very, very first impressions.

Thoughts?
 
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There's an Old World dev in these forums who's going to take this very, very much to heart :)
Well I am a day-1 early adopter(?) of Old World.
So I am a customer 😁

But yes, Millennia seems to me more like an Old World competitor than a Civ rival.
2K+Firaxis have nothing to worry about.

The graphics is like mobile quality 😑
 
After 3 runs I have most positive impressions. Can’t wait for the full release, because now the 60 turns limit feels like torture - you’re given to see and experience just the very tip and then left hanging, yearning for much more. Systems are simple and many elements have been already seen in other games, but what was taken from them was combined in a quite successful way. Despite the simplicity, there seem to be very interesting choices to make and always not enough resources to have it all.

Now we have far too little to base some definitive opinion, but if the rest follows up in the same way and spirit, then the game might be a real gem. I wonder what the victory conditions will be and I’d like to see more of the AI performance, because now it’s rather hard to form any opinion about that, nor can you judge too much the diplomacy and trade systems, because they don’t have time to become prominent yet.

But overall there’s a lot of promise and the game feels quite polished. The UI feels friendly, I haven’t encountered yet any major annoyances. So I have most positive expectations, up to the point of considering uninstalling Civ VI forever, once this comes out :)
 
So who tried out Millenia on Steam's NextFest?

It's like a better version of Old World. Or a poorer version of HUMANKIND.
Not very Civ like TBH besides having culture, technology, governments, nations (soz, civs), production/food/etc (FIMS), units and movements.

I've only played 20 mins of the game, so these are very, very first impressions.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure about your Old World/Humankind ranking there - I personally prefer Old World to Humankind. As do the Steam reviews. And metacritic reviews.

My thoughts are: as a someone who primarily plays on a Mac, it's a poorer version of both Old World and Humankind :p It doesn't look unique enough to have me stop playing BG3 and dig my windows laptop out of my basement at least.
 
I think the focus of the two games is very different. Civ 6 seems focused on creating a very flavorful, diverse experience. They want every civ/leader to feel as unique as possible. There seems to be an active attempt by the developers to avoid the need for the sort of hyper-focused min-max gameplay that used to exist back in say, Civ 4. The Civ 6 devs are perfectly happy to let things be imbalanced as long as they are interesting. That's a perfectly valid approach to a primarily single-player game IMO.

Millenia seems far more focused on appealing to the type of player that likes the deep strategic min-maxing of everything. They seem to want to avoid there being anything that's broken or clearly overpowered as much as possible. Their focus seems primarily on putting the strategy back in strategy games. That's also valid but it probably has a far more niche appeal. I think that the target audience probably doesn't care much about the graphics. Rather than comparing it to Old World or Humankind, I think it feels like a modernized version of Call to Power.
 
I'm not sure about your Old World/Humankind ranking there - I personally prefer Old World to Humankind. As do the Steam reviews. And metacritic reviews.

My thoughts are: as a someone who primarily plays on a Mac, it's a poorer version of both Old World and Humankind :p

Mac user 👍
I played Civ (and other games) on a MacBook until I started modding, which was about 7(?) yrs ago.

I actually prefer the pace and UI of Millennia.
I haven't played Old World in about a year. I'm still on the tutorials and in comparison to Millennia it's a little more obscure.

Biggest innovation of Millennia vs. Civ: UNDO

BTW 👇
Screenshot 2024-02-08 162812.png
 
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Uh-oh…this controversial topic! It’s about to get spicy in here… :)

It would be some pretty diluted spice - Millennia has pretty limited undo support. You can undo a move or an attack, but not always and not most other things, so it can't be used extensively and is more of a misclick correction tool.
 
It would be some pretty diluted spice - Millennia has pretty limited undo support. You can undo a move or an attack, but not always and not most other things, so it can't be used extensively and is more of a misclick correction tool.
That says a lot about multiplayer gaming and how errors are less likely to be fixed. If there's a fix tool then might as well leave it all up to single player play.
 
Mac user 👍
I played Civ (and other games) on a MacBook until I started modding, which was about 7(?) yrs ago.

I actually prefer the pace and UI of Millennia.
I haven't played Old World in about a year. I'm still on the tutorials and in comparison to Millennia it's a little more obscure.

Biggest innovation of Millennia vs. Civ: UNDO

BTW 👇
View attachment 684232

Old World also has UNDO :p

I was talking about Steam Reviews, ie Old World is currently "Very Positive" vs Humankind's "Mixed". Humankind definitely has far bigger user base.

But in general, it's nice to see this much variety in the 4x space. Within the space of a couple years, we'll have had Old World, Humankind, Millennia, Ara: History Untold, and smaller ones like Hexarchy and Ozymandias.
 
But in general, it's nice to see this much variety in the 4x space. Within the space of a couple years, we'll have had Old World, Humankind, Millennia, Ara: History Untold, and smaller ones like Hexarchy and Ozymandias.

While there is a variety of Titles, unfortunately (barring ARA from this, because I simply haven't had a lot of contact with it) there is not a lot of variety or originality in how they handle the mechanics of the 4X experience.

Combat. Old World and Civ have 1UPT. Old World makes it more dynamic by having variable movement rates and very long movement rates compared to Civ. Both of those are old boardgame mechanics: variable movement was in Avalon Hill's Afrika Korps back in the 1960s, long movement was a feature of Panzerblitz from 1967. Millennia and Humankind use a 'drop down' battle map/screen to resolve multi-unit battles, but Humankind actually lets you resolve the battles while Milennia only lets you watch: Millennia's system is ugly to look at and gives the gamer no agency. Humankind's stops the entire turn while you resolve a mini-game battle - and in the late game may have to do that several times each turn, slowing the game to a glacial pace: I personally once spent over an hour resolving a bunch of late-game Humankind battles all in a single game-turn, and it was one of the last times I ever opened the game: life's too short.

Resources. Everybody gathers resources in some way from the map, everybody has those resources fixed on the map despite the four-legged fact that sheep, cattle and horses are migratory animals and the essence of agriculture is to plant crops in new places to make it easier to feed the multitude. Millennia has Production Chains to use the resources with some more depth, but Production Chains have been more extensively done in City Builder games going back to the old Sierra titles and in all the Anno series.

Tech Trees. Everybody has one, even games on a smaller timescale like Old World where many of the Techs provided were in reality already well-known long before the timeframe of the game. Millennia's set are much more abstract than Humankind or Civ, and slightly less linear than the other two, but the Techs still largely come in a vacuum, undisturbed or affected by any thing else, like terrain, climate, or society. Civ VI introduced Eurekas to touch on that, but the connections between Eurekas and the Techs are all too often emphemeral. There is still nothing, in any game, that comes close to recreating the wildly different technologies developed in Europe/Mediterranean and China from 400 BCE to 1300 CE, and in all the games Tech becomes a race to stay ahead or even: technological backwardness is fatal in almost every game.

Culture/Politics/Social Systems. Millennia's is the most open-ended. You are tasked with building your Nation into Whatever You Want, so are given almost no starting bias and potentially have access to any combination of traits. Unfortunately, that makes all the Nations indistinguishable and even in the limited 60 turn Demo, bland. Old World, with its tighter focus on a limited timeframe and geographical set of factions, has a resulting much more detailed political/cultural game, but also has only one type of social/political structure: the dynastic family, and so has to take groups like the Classical Greeks and Romans who got rid of kings early and force them back into the dynastic mould to put them in the game. Civ gives you starting traits and the infamous fully animated, voice-acted Leaders, which both limits the number of Civs in the game (because 3D and voice acting are Resource Sinks) and defines to a considerable extent what kind of Civ you will play, a severe limit when trying to depict civilizations whose character has changed dramatically over the centuries, like China, Egypt, or Britain. In Civ VI, you do not play a Civilization, you play a slice of a Civilization. In Humankind, you also play a slice of a Civilization, but it's usually a completely different civilization every Era/Age, which becomes difficult to keep track of and massively annoying after a very few games.

In short, nobody has really got the Grand Strategy 4x historicalish game right yet, despite over 20 years of trying. Old World comes closest to achieving the 4x goal, by limiting the scope of its attempt to a single Era and a single geographical region, but that's cold comfort to those who want to play the Great Game spanning thousands of years and the entire planet.
 
Combat. Old World and Civ have 1UPT.
Well, Civ5 and Civ6 do. That, I always felt (and I know I'm not alone) was a late-series mistake and inexplicable, highly-gamey decision, considering the vast, imense scope and scale of the game.
 
Old World also has UNDO :p

Old World has UNDO? 😲

Goes to show, even though I purchased it on day-1 I have barely played it. Little under 3hrs total playtime.
I think I've grown tired of 4X. I already uninstalled Millennia BTW (to play Skull & Bones Open Beta).

Marvel's Midnight Suns is my new favourite game.
 
Well, Civ5 and Civ6 do. That, I always felt (and I know I'm not alone) was a late-series mistake and inexplicable, highly-gamey decision, considering the vast, imense scope and scale of the game.
Sorry, should have specified Current Civ.
And I've made no secret about my disdain for 1UPT in a Grand Strategic scale game: it fundamentally warps the combat time and distance scale for the entire game and imposes a mediocre tactical scheme onto a grand strategic map where it has no place.

With its smaller time and distance scale, Old World almost gets away with 1UPT, but even there the compact nature of classical/ancient battles would have made a multi-unit combat scheme more appropriate, IMHO. Using it in any further 4X Grand Strategy scale games would be an utter failure of imagination and intellect on the part of any game design team - also IMHO.
 
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