Minor Suggestion: More Accurate Civics

[Big Heb]

I am not sure how difficult it would be to change the civics or their names so this may fall on deaf ears. RFC is a wonderful mod not only because it is fun, but because it is historically accurate. The only slightly inaccurate parts, in my humble opinion, are the civic names and some of the effects. I am eager to know if this is possible to do, as I believe it will make RFC an even more accurate historical simulator.

This is how I would picture accurate civics.

Government Civics:
Name: Despotism
Upkeep: Low
Requirements: None
Effects: None
Reason: None

Name: Direct Democracy
Upkeep: High
Requirements: Writing
Effects: +2 research from cottage and hamlet, +2 culture per city, +2 gold support cost per military unit, +50% war weariness, +1 turn of anarchy and extra negative stability when switching from Dictatorship or Monarchy
Reason: Direct democracy is the type of government employed by the Athenians, and the civic could also be used to represent the Roman Republic. It works as peacetime civic, as it being used for military expansion would result in economic disaster. This important historical type of government is not represented in the vanilla civics, which I am surprised at.

Name: Dictatorship
Upkeep: Medium
Requirements: Writing
Effects: +5 free units, -25% war weariness, negative stability when used with Vassalage, no anarchy when switching from Direct Democracy, -2 happiness per city after discovery of Liberalism, +25% military production after discovery of Nationalism
Reason: Dictatorship represents the temporary government employed by the Romans during wartime, and it also represents military conquerers from other civilizations. In later time, it represents modern military dictatorships. The extra instability when switching away from this civic represents the dictator's refusal to give up power, such as Julius Caesar.

Name: Monarchy
Upkeep: Low
Requirements: Monarchy
Effects: +1 happiness per military unit stationed in the city
Reason: Hereditary Rule is too vague a name, as it could represent a republic ruled by nobility (e.g. roman senate). Monarchy is a government ruled by one head of state whose succession is hereditary, and is more historically accurate in my opinion.

Name: Republic
Upkeep: Medium
Requirements: Constitution
Effects: +3 science per specialist, +3 happiness in largest cities
Reason: Representation is, again, too vague a name, and offers no difference to Universal Suffrage. Republic represents a constitutional republic and parliamentary republic that tries to govern as little as possible, as opposed to a "People's Republic" or a progressive democracy.

Name: Totalitarian State
Upkeep: High
Requirements: Fascism
Effects: -25% war weariness, no instability from unhappy cities, can sacrifice unhappy citizens (no production boost), no unhappiness from drafting units
Reason: Again, just a better name in my opinion. Some alterations also make it less of a military government (Dictatorship fills this role) and more of a forced stability government to maintain large empires, although it could fill the role of a military government as well.

Name: Progressive Democracy
Upkeep: Medium
Requirements: Democracy, Liberalism
Effects: +1 hammer from town, can spend gold to finish production
Reason: Universal Suffrage doesn't exactly sound like an actual system of government. Progressive Democracy is not as constrained by their constitution as much as a Republic and exists to serve the people through welfare and other progressive policies. Government intervention is common under progressivism, so the effects fit far better than with Universal Suffrage as a name.

Legal Civics
Name: Barbarism
Upkeep: Low
Requirements: None
Effects: None
Reason: None

Name: Common Law
Upkeep: Low
Requirements: Code of Laws
Effects: Extra city stability from Courthouse
Reason: Common Law is a system of law based not on legislation and executive decisions but society's customs and the verdict of the judge. It represents the stable law in the classical era which is not represented currently.

Name: Charter Law
Upkeep: High
Requirements: Civil Service
Effects: +50% commerce and hammers from capital
Reason: Bureaucracy isn't exactly a type of law, making it very inaccurate. Charter Law is a system of law incorporating a charter (e.g. Magna Carta) that granted legal rights to the people opposed from unwritten common law, such as the writ of habeas corpus. The charter is upheld by the government centralized in the capital, justifying the extra production and commerce in the capital.

Name: Vassalage
Upkeep: High
Requirements: Feudalism
Effects: New units receive +2 experience points, free units
Reason: None

Name: Martial Law
Upkeep: None
Requirements: Nationalism
Effects: Can draft 1 to 5 units per turn, depending on map size,
+25% espionage points in all cities, +2 happiness from barracks
Reason: Nationhood is not a legal type, so Martial Law fits better.

Name: Constitutional Law
Upkeep: Low
Requirements: Liberalism, Constitution
Effects: +100% culture in all cities, +2 gold from town
Reason: A more technical name for free speech, except this also represents the inclusion of other civil liberties in the Bill of Rights.

Labor Civics
Unchanged

Economy Civics
Name: Decentralization
Upkeep: None
Requirements: None
Effects: None
Reason: Decentralization is essentially lack of government intervention at all in the economy, so it should not cost anything. This represents barter economies and the Austrian school of economics.

Name: Mercantilism
Upkeep: Medium
Requirements: Banking
Effects: +1 free specialist per city, no foreign trade routes, foreign corporations have no effect
Reason: None

Name: Free Market
Upkeep: Low
Requirements: Economics
Effects: +1 trade route per city, -25% maintenance costs from corporations, possibility of depression if changed from State Property or Keynesian Economy
Reason: Free market represents supply-side, neoclassical and the Chicago school of economics. The great depression occurred 10 years after the deregulation of Woodrow Wilson's planned state capitalism, so it should be safe to suggest that depressions don't just "happen."

Name: Keynesian Economy
Upkeep: Medium
Requirements: Industrialization
Effects: +10% production per city, -10% wonder costs, +25% maintenance costs from corporations, +10% maintenance costs per city
Reason: Keynesian economics differs greatly from free market capitalism, so it should be its own civic. Keynesian economics suggests the government should actively intervene in the economy to stimulate it and invest in building infrastructure. They also believe in redistributing wealth from the rich and giving it to the poor, represented by higher maintenance costs for cities and corporations.

Name: State Property
Upkeep: High
Requirements: Communism
Effects: No maintenance cost from distance to palace, +1 food from workshop, watermill, +10% hammers in all cities, corporations have no effect
Reason: The state owning all of the land and production would require extremely high upkeep costs, and I am very surprised that Free Market costs more in upkeep. It is also very unbalanced without higher upkeep costs.

Name: Corporatism
Upkeep: High
Requirements: Fascism, Corporation
Effects: No maintenance costs from corporations, foreign corporations have no effect, -25% commerce in all cities, possibility of depression
Reason: Environmentalism is not a type of economy, and thus should not be . Corporatism is an economy where the state and corporations have a partnership in running the economy and the interests of the corporations are put before the interests of the people and the state. Corporatism was an integral part of fascist Italy in the 1940's.

Religion Civics
Unchanged


Using these civic changes would not only make the game funner and different from vanilla Civ4, but also more accurate.

 

[Maaximillus]

Yeah this would actually not be to hard to make but it would tike alot time. But yeah awesome (meybe slightly unbalanced) ideas

 

[zbelg]

The only problem is possibly balance, I think that with the exception of State Property (Sid Meiers is a socialist ) for game mechanics the civics have been done rather well as is. I do think you've got a good plan on changing the names like RFC did with national wonders and reworking State Property.

 

[Big Heb]

The only problem is possibly balance, I think that with the exception of State Property (Sid Meiers is a socialist ) for game mechanics the civics have been done rather well as is. I do think you've got a good plan on changing the names like RFC did with national wonders and reworking State Property.

I had a feeling he was a socialist. State Property seems pretty good in this game considering how in real life that many third world countries are doing so well with it.

Some of the new ones I thought up meet need some balancing (Corporatism, Dictatorship, Keynesianism, ETC.) Any ideas?

 

[Úmarth]

You have a very idealistic view of history...

 

[Big Heb]

You have a very idealistic view of history...

Is that a compliment?

 

[jessiecat]

I doubt if Sid Meier is any kind of socialist. And I'm sure he doesn't favour State Property.
He is an American after all.

BTW Thinking that having an idealistic view of history is a good thing is at best idealistic.

 

[kbk]

I wonder how easy it is to add another (6th) civic in a given category.

Most of these are just name changes, and I have no problems with that, though I'm not really sure its necessary to differentiate between a true free market and a Keynesian economy. Yeah, its a blending of a socialist and free market society, but in practice, there are very few or no true free market societies. Very shortly after the industrial revolution, we had a laws interfering with a true free market. For example, anti-trust laws were seen almost immediately in the American free market. I think its just the same way with communism. In practice there are no complete communist societies either. At least, there aren't true communist or true free market societies yet.

Direct Democracy is something I've always wanted to see. The research bonus should also work for more advanced cottages (hamlets, villages towns), and there should be some sort of happiness effect. Maybe allow for no unhappiness in capitol, or maybe just a large bonus. I disagree that it should add to military support or war weariness. Yes, Athens was known for direct democracy and a legacy of arts, but don't forget they had a decent army to fend off Sparta, and a navy that defeated Persia. If you want this to also represent the Roman Republic, remember before Caesar, Rome fought 2 punic wars and acquired (via military conquest) the majority of its empire. Instead, you could add a lot of instability for each city beyond the capitol, or maybe cities beyond 2 or 3. This would help represent why in game terms Rome finally had to switch to monarchy.

And off topic:
I'm not sure why you think Sid Meier is a communist. Outside of this mod, free market is always the best economic civic until you get really, really massive empires. In RFC state property is only used so often because the depressions are buggy (which are being worked on by Rhye).

 

[Big Heb]

I doubt if Sid Meier is any kind of socialist. And I'm sure he doesn't favour State Property.
He is an American after all.

BTW Thinking that having an idealistic view of history is a good thing is at best idealistic.

It was more of a joke, although it is odd that Free Market has more upkeep costs than State Property, and just as much upkeep as true free market Decentralization.

Personally I don't see changing the names of civics to their technical names to be idealistic. If I was being an idealist, I would want the government civics alone to include Plutocracy, Oligarchy, Anarcho-Capitalism, Anarcho-Communism, Constitutional Republic, Parliamentary Republic, Federalist Republic, Socialism, State Capitalism, Monarchy, Dictatorship, Theodemocracy, Authoritarian State, Totalitarian State, Confederation, ETC. And economic civics to include Decentralization. Barter, Mercentailism, Austrian School, Chicago School, Neoclassical, Keynesianism, Supply-Side, Communism, Corporatism, ETC. That I would consider to be idealism.

 

[Mowque]

We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune.

 

[brucedecatz]

Good suggestions. I especially approve the legal category, since apart from Feudalism I have no idea why the other original 3 should be called "legal".

And the point about Keynesian economics is nice and intriguing.

However, I would still keep environmentalism. It is the only civic that deals with health, as later in the game health may be the most constraining factor. If it is unrealistic, think of it being futuristic (which is what the game developers have in mind I think). Now I come to think about it, environmentalism is the manifestation of Keynesian interventionism by a government concerning about environmental issues, so maybe the original choice has more merit than you gave it.

 

[Panopticon]

Hmm... far too many civics and civic effects for me. It's very complicated compared to what we have at the moment, isn't it?

 

[jessiecat]

Good suggestions. I especially approve the legal category, since apart from Feudalism I have no idea why the other original 3 should be called "legal".

And the point about Keynesian economics is nice and intriguing.

However, I would still keep environmentalism. It is the only civic that deals with health, as later in the game health may be the most constraining factor. If it is unrealistic, think of it being futuristic (which is what the game developers have in mind I think). Now I come to think about it, environmentalism is the manifestation of Keynesian interventionism by a government concerning about environmental issues, so maybe the original choice has more merit than you gave it.

Interesting slant on environmentalism. Sounds very much the present agenda of Western European social democracy with its market regulation, social health and welfare strategies and bureacratic economic overview coupled with more recent environmental imperatives.

BTW Anyone who assumes Keynesianism is the direct opposite of so-called "free market" economic stategies clearly doesn't understand Keynes or his debt to Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations" (the so-called bible of free market capitalism). Keynes, like Smith, understood full well the inherent danger of unregulated markets and the instability of unfettered "tooth and claw" capitalism as well as its obvious adverse social consequences of it.

 

[Big Heb]

Interesting slant on environmentalism. Sounds very much the present agenda of Western European social democracy with its market regulation, social health and welfare strategies and bureacratic economic overview coupled with more recent environmental imperatives.

BTW Anyone who assumes Keynesianism is the direct opposite of so-called "free market" economic stategies clearly doesn't understand Keynes or his debt to Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations" (the so-called bible of free market capitalism). Keynes, like Smith, understood full well the inherent danger of unregulated markets and the instability of unfettered "tooth and claw" capitalism as well as its obvious adverse social consequences of it.

Of course. Keynes suggested the government intervene not because the free market is immoral (e.g. Marx), but because intervening in certain areas will boost the economy to more than it otherwise would be in a completely free market. The Free Market civic would represent the economic schools that believe government intervention would harm the economy more than it helps (supply-side economics, Chicago school, neoclassical economics, Austrian school). Keynesian economics is half-way between the Austrian school and Marxism.

We have had what would be considered the Free Market civic in the United States (not sure about the UK), most notably during the presidencies of Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Grover Cleveland, Warren G. Harding, Calvin Coolidge, and (to a much lesser extent) Ronald Reagan. The Sherman Anti-Trust Act was not signed until Benjamin Harrison's presidency. Nearly free markets have existed.

 

[Panopticon]

Economist's comment: Keynesian economics is one of my specialities so I have quite a few opinions about it! Keynes praised Hayek for his work, and if I recall correctly it was The Road To Serfdom he praised. Both Keynes and Hayek were opponents of the Stalinist economics of state planning - which is also obviously not contained in original Marxist analysis due to the absence of a state! Keynes's great gift to the world was to show that planning was unnecessary to provide a government economic stimulus; indeed he saw himself as a defender of market economics against the Communist horde. So I'd say he was much closer to free marketeers than "Marxism".

I would also point out that "corporatism" has little to do with corporations as we understand them nowadays. Rather, it is about producer interests determining economic policy - producers being businesses, trade unions and the state, which are often quite intertwined. Mussolini's Italy is the classic example of a corporatist state; my own country has several corporatist institutions (i.e. the Senate and Social Partnership).

 

[Big Heb]

I would also point out that "corporatism" has little to do with corporations as we understand them nowadays. Rather, it is about producer interests determining economic policy - producers being businesses, trade unions and the state, which are often quite intertwined. Mussolini's Italy is the classic example of a corporatist state; my own country has several corporatist institutions (i.e. the Senate and Social Partnership).

Yes, corporatism is fascism (the real meaning of fascism has been lost to political slander so I chose corporatism instead). No maintenance costs and immunities from foreign corporations seems like the most accurate representation in game mechanics. If you disagree, do you have an idea for different effects for Corporatism?

 

[KnightoftheStar]

Perhaps if possible for Corporatism increase the odds of Greed coming up both for military and corporate reasons.

 

[brucedecatz]

About depressions:

state property: none.
free market: very prone to depressions. While in depression, switching to Keynesian economics ends the depression.
Keynesian economics: not very prone to depressions, and they are short-lived.
Corporatism: Somewhat prone to depressions.

 

[Big Heb]

About depressions:

state property: none.
free market: very prone to depressions. While in depression, switching to Keynesian economics ends the depression.
Keynesian economics: not very prone to depressions, and they are short-lived.
Corporatism: Somewhat prone to depressions.

The problem is that some economists believe it is the intervention in the government that causes the depressions and believe the Great Depression was caused by expansion of the money supply during the 1920's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Great_Depression

There was never a depression in the laissez-faire era of the 19th century, so why should free markets be prone to depressions?

 

[KnightoftheStar]

The problem is that some economists believe it is the intervention in the government that causes the depressions and believe the Great Depression was caused by expansion of the money supply during the 1920's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Great_Depression

There was never a depression in the laissez-faire era of the 19th century, so why should free markets be prone to depressions?

That's an amazingly inaccurate statement, there was a Panic of some kind or another in the US nearly every decade in the 19th Century sending the economy into the crapper. While none of those were so prolonged as the Great Depression each one of them was brutal when they hit.