[MOD] *Very* Realistic Religions - Ready!

[Lachlan]

Are you sure that is not Derek Smart ? The crappy develloper ?

 

[Fachy]

He basically poked fun at his own religion by calling it bloodthirsty.

That was totally out! Just because Moslems happen to be supreme fighters (expanded from China to Spain in less than a 100 years) doesn't make them blood thirsty. And I said they love to fight heathens, which is true. But on the other hand we don't fight nations whom don't fight us. The very obvious example from my previous postings if middle-ages jews sought refuge in Islamic countries after they've been kicked/persecuted in "civilized" europe

Now about positive traits, you have a good idea... for Firaxis! I'm not a company, and I don't care if I offend people for the sake of making a realistic mod (from my point of view, of course)

 

[Leong9000]

doing some admendment to the current religious system is encourage, but seriously, not this way

 

[David Smith]

I think this thread has gotten totally off track, either balance mod out or not.

But stop pushing one Religion over another, that is not what the game is about.

THIS GAME IS A "WHAT IF", NOT NECESSRY A REPEAT OF HISTORY.

Balance it or not, but don't claim what you have now is a balaned GAME. In your own words, you show favor in one religion over the others, but its your right. I don't have to believe you nor do others have to believe your ideas either.

THIS IS A GAME, IT SHOULD TO BE FUN. LET'S GET BACK TO THE FUN PARTS!!!

 

[Cyberstar]

Cyber: Abba's version had alot of logical mistakes, which the game normally had. Such as -and I mentioned them before on 2 threads- giving more potential happiness/culture/research to cities with more religions, when reality is the opposite. My mod limits that to a big extent

Hi Fachy,
You've gotten some really good feedback from others. Keep working at the balance of things. I really like the idea of reworking the religions. I completely understand why Firaxis did things the way they are. Ideally the best way to accomplish your task might be to get input from other religious points of view. As an example, I'd like to share an oversimplified generalization from my observations. Hindus, Buddhist (and others) are based in fear of the spirit world. Judaism and Islam tend to be somewhat depressing because they feel the one all-powerful God is angry with them. Chrsitianity, I'm biased, is the only religion based on hope. So I see these religions having a tendency toward fear, sadness and hope. I think Firaxis didn't want to go down this road and I undestand why. However, I appreciate your work and may give it a try one of these days when I feel it will make the game fun for me to play. I don't want to play a depressing game.

 

[Zurai]

THIS GAME IS A "WHAT IF", NOT NECESSRY A REPEAT OF HISTORY.

Balance it or not, but don't claim what you have now is a balaned GAME. In your own words, you show favor in one religion over the others, but its your right. I don't have to believe you nor do others have to believe your ideas either.

Bingo.

The game isn't supposed to repeat history (why would you want to? The US would "win" every single time). As such, there's no reason to essentially destroy any of the religions.

Even then, it would pay to get your facts straight about non-Islamic religions. There are 750 million Hindus in the world and well over 500 million Buddhists. Neither religion is "obsolete" in any sense of the word.

 

[Fachy]

Cyber You have misconceptions on Islam at least. Islamic scholars say Moslems must live with both fear and hope, and that fear and hope are like 2 wings for a bird. Coz if you're only afraid, you're sure you're going to hell, thus would never do anything good. Vice versa for if you're always optimisitc and sure you're going to heaven no matter how bad you become

A practical problem with "current christianity" is that it basically says "beleive, then do whatever you want". And I read several gospels and can show you exactly which verses say that if you don't know them

Zurai I hate to repeat myself. And I said "obselete" means "stop to spread", gosh!! Read the darn previous posts before posting please??

To everyone fascinated with the idea of re-writing history Your problem is not a balanced or unbalanced religious mod guys, your problem is having a religious mod! I mean, if you totally want to re-write history, then you might wanna assume that Judaism allows pigs, and Islam doesn't encourage its followers to fight heathens, Hinduism keeps spreading till the day of judgement, etc etc etc then just play the vanilla game!.

I expected a constructive feedback to some extent, but 1/2 of the messages go like "that's just repeating history and we want to create it". Fine, create it with exactly similar religions then! Coz any little advantage/disadvantage would be faced with extreme anger from someone. Exactly like the crappy "spiritual" and "organized" traits in vanilla (which I have given them stronger effects in my personal mod)

 

[Zurai]

Zurai I hate to repeat myself. And I said "obselete" means "stop to spread", gosh!! Read the darn previous posts before posting please??

Buddhism is one of the fastest spreading religions in the world.

As for the rest of your post - it's quite possible to make religions different without making them completely and utterly imbalanced. Little things like the health bonuses/penalties don't imbalance the game. Destroying several religions by forcing all of their buildings to become obsolete a third of the way through the game, or by preventing them from spreading (which removing missionaries does - religions ONLY spread naturally to cities with NO religion. You must use a missionary to spread a religion to a city that already has one) does.

 

[Fachy]

*cries* buddhism doesn't stop spreading in my mod. Did you read the mod's description zurai? It's very early religion, and so likely to spread to many cities with a rate of 200% before these cities become occupied with other religions (if they ever did)

The alternative was building a buddhist missionary which is total crap for me, and again, I gave it a +200% spread rate to make it up

 

[Lachlan]

Ok, can you update your mod for more depth ?

Your religious mod is the best but not ultimate and needs improvement

But my hope is to find an overall mod for all aspects of the game

I think that civ 3 is not as realistic as i hoped

 

[yellowred]

Although this is my first post here I've been reading both religion mods threads with great interest on from the beginning. I don't want to drop in the "which is the better" religion discussion but want to say a few words about the "very realistic".

As has been pointed out several times in both threads there is confusion between "realistic" and "historically accurate". It might be historically accurate, that Jews have been spread all over the world after their Temple had been destroyed by the Romans (this was stated in the other thread). To be realistic the mod should take into account that this could have happened to any religion organised around a central city (take Rome and Mekka) and regardless of which nation actually captured the sanctuary (i.e. even if it were the Romans in Jerusalem in history, Aztecs in Rome could have had the same consequences).

My second objection is a more general one. Civ is a game after all so you can't possibly expect it to realistically simulate such an abstract concept as religion. Reducing a faith to "spread rates" and the diet of its followers does not even come close to the meaning of religion.

 

[Fachy]

Lachlan Suggestions?

Yellow You're mistaken about the shrines destruction becaaaause the jewish shrine, in my mod, brings gold coz it's Jews helping their state religion. Once it's captured (say by Romans or Aztecs), they obviously won't pay the conquerors any gold!! This is different for both Makka and Vatican city. If someone caught Makka (God forbid), they would still keep it to get the pillgrimage money. Same goes for the Vatican, to get the indulgence money

About your second point; again I disagree. And the whole point of this mod is to make the game as close as possible to real life. And in real life religions forbid you from using certain resources. Even in the vanilla version it gives bonus to incesne in the cathedrals, is this unrealistic too?

 

[Koheleth]

Lachlan Suggestions?

Yellow You're mistaken about the shrines destruction becaaaause the jewish shrine, in my mod, brings gold coz it's Jews helping their state religion. Once it's captured (say by Romans or Aztecs), they obviously won't pay the conquerors any gold!! This is different for both Makka and Vatican city.

Really? The Jewish Temple was destroyed (twice), but Jerusalem continued to be a centre of pilgrimige for Jews, except during the centuries when her Muslim or Christian rulers banned Jews from the city. Not really any different than any other holy city for any other religion, and no differences should be reflected in the game (or the mod).

 

[Koheleth]

As has been pointed out several times in both threads there is confusion between "realistic" and "historically accurate". It might be historically accurate, that Jews have been spread all over the world after their Temple.

Actually Judaism spread throughout much of the world long before the (2nd) Temple was destroyed. At the time of the destruction, there were gigantic Jewish communities in Egypt (indeed, there were probably more Jews in Egypt than Judea), Asia Minor, Babylonia, Persia, and emergent communities in Spain, Rome and Tunisia -- among other places.

If the game's "spread" rate at least partially reflects the spread of minority religions (since a city can have all 7 religions, theoretically), than a 10 spread rate is ubsurdly low for Judaism, and probably reflects Fachy's admitted anti-Jewish biases more than anything, just like his Mod's ridiculous limitation that Judiasm can't spread after Christianity (when, in fact, it kept spreading quite rapidly until persecution by Christian and Muslim governments ended most conversion to Judiasm). In reality, of course, there were Jewish states with large convert populations in Yemen, Ethiopia, and Khazaria that existed for hundreds of years at various times between 0 and 1400 c.e.

 

[Xavier Von Erck]

This <snip> calls certain religions "obsolete" and then, as a Muslim, attacks the Jewish military? Makes sense that you would attack the Jewish military considering that the Israeli military has whipped the ass of nearly every Muslim country over and over. Giving military experience points to Muslim military units is not only historically ignorant but completely unbalancing for Civ.

What's next, Christians, Jews and others making their own religious mods to promote their own religions? What fun! I'm glad Firaxis had the sense not to play into garbage like this.

 

[RED DIAMOND]

This idiot calls certain religions "obsolete" and then, as a Muslim, attacks the Jewish military? Makes sense that you would attack the Jewish military considering that the Israeli military has whipped the ass of nearly every Muslim country over and over. Giving military experience points to Muslim military units is not only historically ignorant but completely unbalancing for Civ.

What's next, Christians, Jews and others making their own religious mods to promote their own religions? What fun! I'm glad Firaxis had the sense not to play into garbage like this.

Now Xavier you seem to be having a little trouble expressing yourself. Tell us all how you "really" feel LOL!

 

[Fachy]

Kohel I didn't say the holy city will be removed. And if the jews re-captured the holy city they can always use a great religious guy to have their shrine back

Give me a break Kohel, Judaism almost never spread to people out than the offspring of propeht Ya'qoob (Jacob) who is also called Isru'eel (Israel).

Xavier You're the <snip> because you haven't read my definition of "obselete" about 97 times in this thread before posting. And there has been virtually no jewish military for the last 2000 years, save the last 70 years only. And I shouldn't banish 2000 years for the sake of 70 don't you think? (assuming you have the ability to think)

 

[keren]

Judaism isn't spreading because it's not a multi-race faith, unlike many others. Jews are not TRYING to convince anyone with Judaism anyway, that has got nothing to do with the holocaust (assuming it happened).

I stopped reading after that

 

[Xavier Von Erck]

Sorry Fachy, I forgot about the logic in giving Muslim military soldiers more experience automatically because of the great empire that Egypt has been for the last 2000 years. First, you were the Roman's <snip>, then the Ottoman's <snip>, then the <snip> of the British. After obtaining your independence, you promptly got your asses kicked by the Israeli's. But oh yes, Islam deserves military advantages in Civ4 because the best unit you've ever created is one that blows itself up attacking civilians! Smart!

Fachy's reply: "But I'm Muslim so I want to give them stuff because I'm Muslim!"

Yeah, great mod. Snicker.

 

[Lucius Sulla]

I think this thread has got well off hand with direct insults between forum members and such a grave thing as holocaust denying. Which is a crime in several countries, by the way. Is not there a 'report to mods' button in this forum?

About the issue of automatic promotions: I feel somebody here is mistaking the initial arabian civilization with muslim religion, if you want to consider past history. Current muslim countries military have had a terribly bad reputation in the last century, specially confronted with western powers. And just think the biggest muslim power in the XIX century was already known as the 'sick man of the west'.