[MOD] *Very* Realistic Religions - Ready!

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Oh my, what a mess... :satan:

Fachy, I see you're more and more nice and polite with each post not agreeing with your vision of the world, or - at least - your mod in the form it is for now...:clap:

Have you seen your poll ? You got a few more votes for the third answer...:rolleyes:

Maybe it's high time to read the hints some people were giving you in first posts and consider applying them ?:sleep:

PS. I. I wrote it just for fun of feeling your hollow anger in your posts, because I don't believe you'll ever consider any constructive critic in this thread and get to work - you're obviously absolutely happy with your mod as it is now - I wish you many great victories and conquests in civ4 - honestly. :spear:

PS. II. Not only you have the ability of being sarcastic - my post with quoting you was nothing more but a sarcastic and ironic reply :smoke:
 
Well, this was a little controversial. I think you have to many things that are actually not because of religion in this mod. If the three God-religions followed the ten commandments, then you shouldn't be able to build armies (Thou shalt not kill). It is the civic options that change society, most religions are quite peaceful. The Crusades were not entirely because of religious differences, it was a way for the Pope to unite Europe against a common enemy. You could have some kind of relations bonus between Islam and Christianity, and between Islam and Judaism, because Muslems should respect other God-worshippers. Maybe a little anti-semitism for the Christians too, but then again, it is more of a civic choice.
 
I think I wasn't able to bring my point across, maybe because I'm not a native speaker of English... And then the mutual insults became more interesting than a post on topic...

The scenario I was heading at goes as follows:

You are a citizen of the holy city of a given faith, lets say Jerusalem, and you are an follower of that faith, lets say a Jew, and some other nation, lets say the Romans, conquers your city and forbibs you to practice you religion. So what you have to do if you want to keep your lifestyle, is to fly to other cities with more tolerant population, thus "spreadig into the whole world" as I admittedly simplyfied it.

I'm not sure if this is what really happened, at least it is what I read out of some posts in this very forum. Anyway the point is, that all the specifics (Jerusalem, Jew, Romans) could be exchanged e.g. (Rome, Christian, Aztecs) without being unrealistic. It only would be historically inaccurate which is not the same thing. So there is no real reason to give any advantage or disadvantage to a particular religion, but any religion that suffers the loss of its sanctuary should also suffer consequences like this.

That would be more realistic (just because it didn't happen, it does not mean it could not possibly have happened) and it would also solve a lot of the "you favour one religion over another" problem. Of course you are free to favour Islam, but you can't deny that this does unbalance the game and you should know from what has been written here, that most people prefer a balanced game, that is, they will not play your mod.

Maybe you have noticed that this text is manly about gameplay, not about ideology. I'd be glad if anyone could adopt this standard, it would help the discussion in my opinion.
 
I can't tell you how much fun I'm having reading this. During the Christmas season, I had forgotten how nasty people can be to each other. In any case, with intention to offend, here is my two cents...

It's extremely hard to tell how religions grant different bonuses to nations who use them. Obviously, they all grant significant culture bonuses and they have played their part in diplomatic relations. I really don't know much about Confucianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or Taoism, but I know that the "People of the Book" Christians, Jews, and Muslims, have all kicked ass in their times. All have stifled scientific development. All have persecuted other religions. All three can be taken to differing interpretations. In each there is a fanatic side that says, "All the rest are heathens, so convert them or kill them," a side that says, "Show them the way by our toleration and love," and, from a monarch's standpoint, "I don't care what they believe, but I need that land!"
Perhaps it would be better to differentiate here, having a fanatic, tolerant, or free religion civic. Wait, that's already what we have... Hey, those guys at Firaxis sure make a great game! Excuse me while I lose myself in wiping Mansa Musa off the planet!
Also, you need another choice in your poll that says, "I liked it best before" because I clicked on your post on purpose and I don't think it's okay.
 
:( THIS THREAD IS GOING NOWHERE!!!:mad:

You're not listening to anyone, not even to people who just want tell YOU different ways to make your mod better and balanced. You have JUST turn this into a FIGHT over religion, your ideas not everyone's.

THIS IS A GAME, TO BE FUN, AN ESCAPE FROM REALITY, BUT ONLY A GAME. A GOOD "WHAT IF" GAME THAT ALLOWS US TO HAVE FUN, AN ALTERNATE LOOK OF WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN. :confused:

WE DON'T NEED MORE DISCONTENT AND HATEFULNESS OVER A GAME.

GIVE US BALANCED MOD, GIVE US A CHOICE.
OFFER DIFFERENT VERISIONS, ONES THAT DEAL WITH RELIGION VIA CIVIC's.


SHOW US WHAT YOU CAN DO, NOT YOU RELIGIOUS DOGMA.
:rolleyes:
 
Fachy said:
Judaism isn't spreading because it's not a multi-race faith, unlike many others. Jews are not TRYING to convince anyone with Judaism anyway, that has got nothing to do with the holocaust (assuming it happened).

:eek: Dude shame on you. Shame , shame. :(
 
This is to everyone who is defending or bashing any religion:

Virtually every religion ever to exist has had one thing in common:
They all portray God as a Geographically isolated bigot who has "chosen" one group of people over all of the others, (which humorously he will admit to creating, but for some reason no longer likes them as much as his "chosen" group) and to whom he will then bestow wisdom and blessings which he will deny to all others...Unless they convert to a set of doctrines which he will only give to his "chosen" and uncourage them to convert others...

I have some major problems with the portrayal of God by his followers.

This is an ignorant and small minded portrayal of the entire concept of an omiscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, creator of everything!

Who here thinks God hates everyone who doesn't eat a cracker on sunday?
Who here thinks God hates anyone who fails to bow to the east?
Who here thinks that God hates people who eat pork?

Who here thinks God hates anything other than small-minded morons who think of Him as a geographically isolated bigot?!?

I find the very idea that God would single out a small group of people in some sparesly populated desert and bestow upon them the wisdom of the ages and tell everyone else to burn in the netherworld, offensive! Yet no less than three of the worlds major religions insist this is exactly what occured!

I believe in God.
I dont believe in any of his followers.
 
Fachy, I think that you may have stepped into a minefield here. It seems that you are drawing far too many stereotypes for all of these religions and because of that, it makes your mod unbalanced

First off, why did you make it a bad thing to have free religion? That's quite closed-minded of you. In my games, i love to give my people the freedom to worship whatever they want.

All in all, I just think you're treating all religions besides Islam with carelessness and I think it makes the mod very unbalanced.

The religions in the game should be given a blank slate, and they shouldn't be based on anything that happened after the advent of the religion, because that's what you are there for in the game, you are there to forge the path for your religion
 
Xavier Islam spread from the Arabian peninsula to China's borders, and to France's borders, in less than a century. And israel would have never won anything if it wasn't for the uk and usa's support

Now what has Egypt got to do with anything??

RedShame on me because I'm not assuring the holocaust happened? Whatever!!

Lucius Sulla said:
and such a grave thing as holocaust denying. Which is a crime in several countries
So much for the first ammendment. A simple proof that the jews do control the world politically

Sulla Islam has stood strong for about 8 centuries, practically dominating the world, at the time when Europe was only pig farms and crazy people burning witches and people who claimed the earth wasn't the center of the universe. So don't focus on the last 2 centuries only, same goes for the Jews. Be fair.

Mrop If you think Judaism does not encourage killing, I suggest you read chapter 20 in Duetronomy. And Islam have no such thing as "the 10 commandments".

Anyone thinks I'm favoring Islam In my current game I chose to convert from Buddhism to Taoism coz it gives much more scientific bonus. I found my cities don't need growth rate, and my army is strong enough without the extra experience points. I mean every religion has its pros and cons, so stop bashing about me making Islam the supreme power (though historically it has been, as I said, for 8 centuries)

David Read my post which had in bold "anyone enthusiastic about re-writing history" or something, it answers your point

Fex Jews say they're God's chosen people. But I haven't heard of any other religions claiming that :)

Lumir I answered why did I make it a bad thing in my initial post, and in about 2 posts after that, and I'm not repeating it

If you think I gave Islam too many bonuses read this post. And you also need to read my post saying "to everyone crazy about re-writing history"
 
Fachy said:
RedShame on me because I'm not assuring the holocaust happened? Whatever!!

So much for the first ammendment. A simple proof that the jews do control the world politically

Oh no Fachy please do not mistake me saying shame on you as an attempt to deny your rights to speak your mind.

However, even the most ignorant closed minded anti semetic idiot would not deny that the holocaust happened, or would they? :rolleyes:
 
You are not even trying to comprise or take ideas. :wallbash: Its seem to me, that it's you way and everyone else wrong. :crazyeye:

Ok, don't change your mod. Its Is Yours do whatever you want or feel like. I just don't think it is worth the fight. :wallbash: :rolleyes:

I and many others will just have to wait for the "Abbamouse Realistic Religions Mod" to be fixed for v1.52 and shaped into some thing the Forums members can agree on. ;)

He is at least taking suggestions from Forums members and in the end, that is what matters. :hammer:

No one is forced to use your mod and the better of these two mod will be used by the most players. :yeah: :groucho:

:king: That will be the best method of chosing the BETTER Mod. :D
 
RED DIAMOND said:
However, even the most ignorant closed minded anti semetic idiot would not deny that the holocaust happened, or would they? :rolleyes:
Of course they won't, for the very reason you said, they're closed minded idiots beleiving whatever the media says :lol:
Anyway I can't be anti-semitic since I'm semitic myself ^.^

David I don't recall abbamouse taking any suggestions except for renaming the Islamic missionary into Da'eya instead of Imam :s If doing that in my mod would make you think I'm open minded, I can do it just for you :)

And I don't like your definition of better as "most popular", anyway we cannot define "better" :D
 
What is with this media thing you keep referring to in your thinly vailed attempt to say that the holocaust did not occur? Are you saying it was all made up by the media? If so then just man up and say it. Stop trying to hide your true self and just admit the obvious concerning your bias and prejudice.
 
Fachy said:
So much for the first ammendment. A simple proof that the jews do control the world politically

Sulla Islam has stood strong for about 8 centuries, practically dominating the world, at the time when Europe was only pig farms and crazy people burning witches and people who claimed the earth wasn't the center of the universe. So don't focus on the last 2 centuries only, same goes for the Jews. Be fair.

First ammendment? What has the US has to do with this? I was mentioning the cases of several European countries, where the jew populations is nearly equal to nil. I remind you, I am not American. I'm Spanish. I don't give a damn about the US constitution, except as culture value.

Islam has dominated strong for 8 centuries... oh, god... so much from brainwashing

Islam never dominated its known world, not a *SINGLE* islamic country has ever been *the* world power (before the XVth century the term did not have a real sense, and then that role went to Spain in the XVI-early XVII centuries, France in the late XVII and XVIII centuries and periods of the start of the XIX century, England in the XIX century, US/URSS during the XXth century, and USA in the late XXth and starting XXIst century, with periods of equilibrium and transition from one time to other). Islam did expand significatively from the VIII to the XI century in a cohesive political unity. Still, when encounted significative ressistance, such as Byzantine Anatolia and past the pyrinees, it did not advance. These are 4 centuries at most, and again, advancing only through zones that had fallen in civil disarray or outright civil war (such as Visigothic Spain, or the decadent Eastern Roman Empire).

Anyway, speaking about 'islam' about being a 'power' is a contradiction in terms, from the moment the turks arrived. The seljuk empire or the ottoman empire maybe were dominant in their areas of influence, but 'islam' as such was not. It was a religion, something that you are quite, quite forgetting.

The first person who actually proposed heliocentrism was Aristotle (Greek and thus part of the Western tradition), and then the first one to actually propose a theory was Aristarchus (270 BC, again Greek). The only philosophers that referred to heliocentrism during the middle ages, dominated by the ptolemaic theory were Aryabhata and far later Bhaskara, who where from India and were not muslim.

The first person to actually finish a theory with empirical calculations was... Copernicus. Just go fancy. He nearly gets burnt from it, but his theory sticked.

Saying that Europeans had only pig farms (which I assume has an intended offensive implication) is completely false. Roman tradition and engineering was dormant, but was there, and was in many issues far superior to the muslim countries. By the XIIth century, christian european military science, land doctrine specially, were already significativelly superior. The crusaders only actually failed because of a still deficient immigrational techniques and movements, and having its real bases in Europe just too far away (and still, even in such accounts as the battle of Hattin, the christian soldier was far superior to the muslim one, who needed a good superiority in numbers to defeat small christian numbers). And the muslim war effort had already been destroyed by succesive invaders from the East. The turks, who converted, and the pagan mongols, who swiped through middle east and actually razed baghdad... it's a wonder that all so powerful muslims, the most powerful men in the world in that era, could not defend the supposed political center of their faith. And the mongols would only be defeated by the mamluks, which were a marginal and ex-slaved ethnics, and not the central ethnics or people who had really represented the center of the islam (truly the turks in a way and the mameluks were nearly as barbaric and certainly far more barbaric than the raising european people).

The swan song of superiority in any possible way of a muslim country was XV-XVII century Ottoman Empire. And then, after its initial expansion and millitar superiority (who was always marginal compared to their european neighbours) it was contained, then defeated, then pushed back at every term.

Still, by XVI century, western christian civilization was already neatly superior in every field (mathmatics, philosophy, architectury, art, economy, millitary) to their muslim neighbours. If anything, christian countries had been able to absorb succesfully any muslim advance during the middle ages, while any muslim countries revealed themselves pathetically ineffectual in doing the same with christian origin advancements.

So much for your mod being realistic.

About the holocaust, there were Spanish Republican exiled prisoners in concentration and death camps such as Matthausen. They were Christian and did not have any reason at all to lie about the holocaust (not even guilt), and their testimony is undeniable. The holocaust happened. Dennying it is not only irresponsible... but revealing a miserable spirit and aim.

Personally, I consider that anyone who tries to minimize or deny a genocide (not only this one, but any other) for any political reason is purely and simply pig excrements.

Feel free to play your mod, but don't try to tell us that is realistic or historical in any way, because it's clearly not, and any mantained claim that it is is simply self-dellusional.
 
Fachy said:
Fex Jews say they're God's chosen people. But I haven't heard of any other religions claiming that :)

You are babbling semantics now.

This was why "Chosen" was in quotes.
Both Judaism and Christianity (which utilizes the old testament which by definition contains the pentatuch (sp?)) use the term "chosen people" specificially, but every religion believes themselves the true believes, the chosen people, the favored, etc etc etc.

And you are a true zealot. Your ridiculous assertion that there is even a possibility that the holocaust was some false conspiracy is astounding in the 21st century! How about those people with the numbers on their arms? I suppose they were in on it? How about the GIs who witnessed it? All just a lie? I doubt it...ever seen Band of Brothers? One of the guys that show was about lives here in my town, I'v e met him shopping at my local grocery store. He was there, he personally bore witness to the release of prisoners from the death camps, oh wait he must be in on the conspiracy right? How about those who confessed to the atrocities? I supposed they were coerced? You know I bet those people they rescued at the end of WWII volunteered to be starved until their belly's caved in just so they could be in ojn the conspiracy! Psst, Hey! Lets not eat for a few weeks and then when the Army arives we'll claim we were tortured! That aughta be fun!

Idiocy.

But you know what, you go ahead and believe the Holocaust was a lie.

I'll just have to start a belief that the Crusades never happend, and that the crusades are just an excuse by the middle east to hold resentment against the west. All a media hoax. Never happend. No Crusades. Just a lie.

And speaking of ridiculous and Crusades...

I laughed my butt off when the middle east went wacky over Bush using the word crusade! I mean its so funny since a Crusade is absolutely the exact same thing as a Jihad! Crusade = Holy War. Jihad = Holy War. And every other week the west hears the word Jihad from some nut in a robe over there, but one person in the west says crusade...and in this case it was even contextually different, meaning not a holy war but a campaign against a percieved wrong, and the middle east freaks out!

I bet the middle east hates Batman too!
Afterall he is the Caped Crusader!
He must be a tool of the great satan used toindoctrinate its children against islam!

:p

Stop being ridiculous Fachy!
 
Your right, "most popular" doesn't equal better. :hmm:

As for being Popular, your own poll should tell you the results there; 5% like it (including you), 57% its ok but it needs modifed (includes me) and 38% think your a "jerk" ie. don't like your mod or your idea of religious mod.

By "better" I mean more useable, but I don't care any more. :sad: Your not going listen or to change you ideas.

You have got more posts from me than any other thread I read. If that was your goal here. :goodjob: If it was to produce a useable mod that does the job for the Forum, :rolleyes: well 5% liking is not that Great.

But I like so many others, I will just keep on reading this wonderful "saga" :lol: to see how it finally comes out. :crazyeye:
 
RED DIAMOND said:
What is with this media thing you keep referring to in your thinly vailed attempt to say that the holocaust did not occur? Are you saying it was all made up by the media? If so then just man up and say it. Stop trying to hide your true self and just admit the obvious concerning your bias and prejudice.
omg! How dare me deny the holy holocaust? Of course I can't say that. Please forgive me if you got me wrong or falsy thought that I DON'T BELEIVE IN THE HOLOCAUST :lol:

Sulla Is this a lesson in Roman numericals? Ok I'd be glad to know who was the major world power (and who inherited basically all the Roman and Persian dominated lands) between the 8th - 16th cen.. oops, I mean between the VIIIth and the XVIIIth centuries :lol:

Fex Every religion think they got the true way.. not only every religion, every line of thought in general (political, economical, social..etc). BUT when it comes to the best race that's where the jews kick in. They think their RACE is God's chosen people. Just like the Nazis thought. It's not just about faith that's what I'm saying. For Islam for example, an African Moslem is "as superior as" a Chinese Moslem. But even in the jewish community you've got "castes" where European jews are superior to black jews.. etc

Just coz jews were persecuted and thrown into labor camps (like the Soviets were treated or any other persecuted folk) doesn't mean 6 darn million of them was gased to death, that's plain rediculous

The holocaust was supposed to be "a big secret" till the Soviets arrived from the East and "discovered the hidden camps" which "the nazi regime wanted to hide its traces"... gasing 6 million people to death doesn't exactly seem to be hide-able.. at least from my point of view. And by the way that's the common thought in the Arab world

The problem with bush saying "crusade" is his assertion it being a "re-9/11 strike" and "anti-terrorism" and all that bogus. But when a Moslem uses the term Jihad, he isn't hypocreticla about it, and so you can't "catch" him if you know what I mean

David 4 people only liking it? Then why did I get more than 100 downloads (the file has been replaced twice so two-loads has been removed)

Hardly anything in the world is perfect, if anything at all. Yet everyone has things he like, though he acknowledges they're not perfect :king:
 
6 miilions jews being gased is not ridiculous, it's the truth, plain and simple

All the profs have been exposed over and over and over, and I do not understand how someone intellignet could deny them.

Yes, the nazis had an agenda to extermine the jews,
yes they did build labour camp, and extermination camp for the sole purpose of exterminating the jews,
yes, they used the ressource of german heavy industry (gaz chambers, crematorium,...) to coldly and methodically apply their pal,
yes, six milliosn jews, and thousands of tzigans were exterminated during the world war 2

If you dare open your eyes, all the proofs, testimonies, writings can be found everywhere, just get yourself informed
 
Fachy said:
Sulla Is this a lesson in Roman numericals? Ok I'd be glad to know who was the major world power (and who inherited basically all the Roman and Persian dominated lands) between the 8th - 16th cen.. oops, I mean between the VIIIth and the XVIIIth centuries :lol:

Roman provinces like... Transalpine Gaul, Cisalpine Gaul, Ulterior Iberia, Citerior Iberia, Italia, Sicily, Sardeny&Corsica, Britania.... Of course, Acaia, Dacia, Iliria, and Panonia were in muslim hands all the way from the VIIIth to the XVIII century, sure... :rolleyes: Some of this were in muslim hands only partially for 4 hundred years... most of them were not at all. Your claim for that range of time is ridiculous.

As I said, there was NO possible major world power until the XVI century. Because, simply put, there was no world scale communication until the european age of discovery. In 1600, the Japanese or the chinese had, at best a nebolous idea of the Ottoman Empire and Islam, but they had quite a definite one about the Spanish Empire and christendom, and felt (suffered) its influence, while they could not influence back. That's what is really being a world power.

From circa 1500 to 1625, it can be said without many fear of getting it wrong, that Spain was the first world power. It dominated an overseas empire and had such a massive militar land doctrine advantage that the Spanish power could intervene or influence in any given scenario. Be it the French wars of religion, shattering completely the Ottoman naval power in the Easter mediterranean (and I mean *completely*, after the battle of Lepant it would not start to recover for a generation), or force christian missionaires in the far east, or yes, helping the German emperor (who was the Spanish king, first, and then his uncle or cousin in the following generations) to repel the turks from Austria (and then proceed to push them out from Hungary and the balkans).

The main muslim country in this time is the Ottoman Empire, without the shadow of a doubt. While it had gained tremendous territorial advances in the balkans in the first half of the XVI century (specially after Mohacs, against a country that was not by far so advanced as the western powers), it was stopped quite suddenly in the gates of Viena. And slowly it was pushed back. Any attempts for naval dominion were completely shattered. Their tries to get past the conquest of a simple thin patch of territory at the beach stopped short at the north-western african shore. Apart from Piracy, they could not accomplish more, and again, Spanish and Italian roads shattered the pirate bases (such as Red-Beard's, allied to the Ottoman power).

With the war of the thirty years, France finally defeated and exhaustes Spain, who, while still holding a huge overseas empire, clearly could not impose its way of things in Europe or when in conflict with France in other overseas scenarios.

During the late Richelieu, and then Louis XIV and Louis XV, the French kingdom could be the referee of Europe. The middle east and northern Africa were now clearly backward and impoverished areas (so much for muslim good management). A brief revival of the Ottoman Empire was crushed by... the austrians, who were still shattered after the chaos of the 30 years war and the Polish, who were starting to become already, thanks to their 'Libellum Veto' policy in the most anarchic kingdom in Europe.

This centuries saw the rising of Persia and the Mughal Empire. But apart from being a pain in the butt for the Ottomans (Persia, that is), they were never more than a local power. During this time the Ottoman empire fell in decadence, and started to earn their nickname: "The sick man of the West". So much for the most powerful muslim country in the world. By the time the English gained dominance, everybody could go and pick up on them, at will, even wage their wars in a former ottoman province like Egypt had been.

Now, if we consider who was the major world power during the middle ages, we could only refer to an specific theater of operations. Never a world scale power. While the Abbasid caliphate was the only power in the middle east in the IXth century, it would not even dream of intervening in Germany or France (and the opposite way, too). While the mongol empire and their Golden Horde and Il-Khanate sweeped through the russian steppes, and their Il-Khanate to reach Palestine, after devastating Persia, the Iraqi region, Transaxonia, Syria and Anatolia, they could not reach into Germany, for several reasons (and their stated objective was... world domination, unlike many other powers of the time).

Any other history lessons needed? you seem to be severely lacking in that field... you just stop at the 'funny roman numerals'.

Your attitude towards the jewish holocaust is... despicable at best. It would even be remotely suspicious if it was not for the fact that other communities were there with the jews (slavic people, gipsies, leftist and/or communist politicians, homosexuals... or even just disabled people). Not only millions of jews died... but also millions of non-jews died in the Nazi death camps. Your denial of that fact is insulting to their memory.
 
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