Monopolies aren’t the problem, it’s the void

[Thebard78]

While I get that monopolies can lead to much faster wins (and some stupid ones if you are really lucky), it isn’t the monopolies themselves that are breaking the game, but the void (and some heroes to an extent). Even before monopolies, I several sub 180 wins on deity (all standard map size/standard speed) and all monopolies have really done is save me from 30 or so turns of making it in waiting for the inevitable win.

My last game is a great example of why it’s the void (and heroes) that breaks the game. On Deity/standard map/speed, I was Brazil and only built holy sites and theater squares (but always holy sites first). I had conservation on turn 120 and flight on 130 (with a 132 win thanks to some colossal heads). I didn’t even build my first campus until turn 125, only build 1 hub for a place to pop great merchants, and a late game harbor for era score.

Monopolies do allow you to spread tourism fast, but it is really only abusive when coupled with other optional game modes (ie societies to get void or heroes to get relics) and I don’t think they should totally nerf the mode because we are choosing to play with several optional modes together.

 

[Fomalhaut]

Well, I wouldn't agree fully to that.
In my last (and only) game with this mode I was playing on a large map as Teddy (Bull Moose) with Earth Goddess, several Preserves and a lot of city parks.
I have won much faster than my usual Deity culture wins and that's even without abusing the monopolies by targeted settling and befriending the city states with the correct resources. I would imagine using other civs with high tourism (Khmer + Reliquaries ?) would have similarly easy experience without voidslingers or heroes.

 

[leandrombraz]

The problem with the monopoly tourism modifier isn't just that you can win fast, bu that you can win fast without trying, while going for another victory or even while actively trying to sabotage your own tourism. You don't need Voidsingers or anything else for it to be broken, it's broken on it's own. I usually pick Owls of Minerva, because I think it's the most balanced of the four options. I got an early win while trying to stop it from happening just the same.

Voidsingers is also OP, a lot of the game modes mechanics are, but this tourism modifier is on another level. The yields you get from this society will give you a considerable boost while going for a specific victory, mainly cultural and religious, but you won't win a victory you aren't pursuing because of it. I can play secret societies with every victory enabled. I can't play monopolies unless I disable cultural victories.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think another problem is that the AI isn't doing a good job developing their own monopolies, so your tourism is getting supercharged, but theirs isn't.

 

[Stringer1313]

No, I always turn secret societies off and still win CV ridiculously quickly with monopolies turned on.

 

[bengalryan9]

Voidsingers ruin Secret Societies mode IMO. Joining that society basically cripples the AI's ability to do anything due to their lack of desire to do anything but train cultists. In my current game (standard size, deity difficulty) the 3 AIs that established religions have literally stopped training apostles or missionaries... if I had any interest in going after a religious victory it would be a cakewalk. Instead they just spam cultists that they don't even do anything with... I think the AI even thinks they count as actual troops, as Spain declared war on me and sent basically nothing but cultists into my territory the whole time. Couple that with the fact that they're completely OP in the hands of a human player who knows what they are doing and they just ruin the game mode for me.

 

[Villager720]

I think another problem is that the AI isn't doing a good job developing their own monopolies, so your tourism is getting supercharged, but theirs isn't.

^This. The monopoly multiplier is only so devastating because the AI doesn't improve resources since the Jan patch. If they were behaving properly, you'd have less monopolies and they'd have some of their own countering your multiplier.
But as it stands, every luxury you improve is a monopoly because no one else is improving any.

 

[leandrombraz]

Voidsingers ruin Secret Societies mode IMO. Joining that society basically cripples the AI's ability to do anything due to their lack of desire to do anything but train cultists. In my current game (standard size, deity difficulty) the 3 AIs that established religions have literally stopped training apostles or missionaries... if I had any interest in going after a religious victory it would be a cakewalk. Instead they just spam cultists that they don't even do anything with... I think the AI even thinks they count as actual troops, as Spain declared war on me and sent basically nothing but cultists into my territory the whole time. Couple that with the fact that they're completely OP in the hands of a human player who knows what they are doing and they just ruin the game mode for me.

If Firaxis can't program the AI to use cultists, they should just make it so they can't build it anymore. I would rather have an AI that can't produce a unit than one that spam it and then does nothing with it.

^This. The monopoly multiplier is only so devastating because the AI doesn't improve resources since the Jan patch. If they were behaving properly, you'd have less monopolies and they'd have some of their own countering your multiplier.
But as it stands, every luxury you improve is a monopoly because no one else is improving any.

Even though the AI not improving resources accentuates the problem, it isn't the cause. Even if the AI was working properly, the modifier would still be astronomically high. The only difference it would make is that it would increase the odds for the AI to be the one that wins early by accident, instead of the player. Keep in mind that tourism doesn't work as a defense against the tourism of other Civs, so the AI getting more tourism makes no difference on how fast you're going to win.

 

[kryat]

Even though the AI not improving resources accentuates the problem, it isn't the cause. Even if the AI was working properly, the modifier would still be astronomically high. The only difference it would make is that it would increase the odds for the AI to be the one that wins early by accident, instead of the player. Keep in mind that tourism doesn't work as a defense against the tourism of other Civs, so the AI getting more tourism makes no difference on how fast you're going to win.

Isn’t more tourism from others a defense though? That’s why non-game mode CVs often take a while to finalize the win, if they’re generating more domestic tourism than the player is generating internationally.

Therefore, if two players had a 500% modifier, it wouldn’t be any different than having no modifier, other than the raw numbers being different.

 

[UWHabs]

If Firaxis can't program the AI to use cultists, they should just make it so they can't build it anymore. I would rather have an AI that can't produce a unit than one that spam it and then does nothing with it.

Honestly, even if they built cultists and just threw them randomly against any nearby city, so they at least generated the relics from them but didn't use them in any coordinated way to flip cities, that would be 100% better than what they do now. I believe total cultist relics are limited globally, so at least that would give them some relics to play with.

But as to the OP, the modifier is broken even without voidsingers or heroes. Yeah, those exacerbate the problem, but you just need 8 or 10 resources in a monopoly and then the multipliers are high enough that you're going to win culturally without even trying more often than not.

 

[Fomalhaut]

Isn’t more tourism from others a defense though? That’s why non-game mode CVs often take a while to finalize the win, if they’re generating more domestic tourism than the player is generating internationally.

I believe the number of domestic tourists is determined by the culture generation. And since monopolies don't give bonus to it - it would stay flat even if the AI improves the resources except the negligible increments of +1 from jade, coffee, marble, etc.

 

[leandrombraz]

Isn’t more tourism from others a defense though? That’s why non-game mode CVs often take a while to finalize the win, if they’re generating more domestic tourism than the player is generating internationally.

Therefore, if two players had a 500% modifier, it wouldn’t be any different than having no modifier, other than the raw numbers being different.

Domestic tourists are generated by culture, not tourism. Tourism "steal" domestic tourists and turn into Foreign tourists. If anything, more Civs with high tourism might speed up the victory even more, since there will be more domestic tourists being "stolen", decreasing the amount of foreign tourists necessary to win.

 

[Shibooyeah]

I just feel like I'm not understanding the conversation altogether. I see all of these modes as naturally, expectedly unbalanced fun time things. So when I see people saying monopolies are broken (not to mention that 80% of the time they're also playing with, like, six other optional modes enabled) I just feel like... yes, of course. When you play Super Smash Bros. on a "pro" level you're not playing Giant Melee or Super Sudden Death.

 

[UWHabs]

I just feel like I'm not understanding the conversation altogether. I see all of these modes as naturally, expectedly unbalanced fun time things. So when I see people saying monopolies are broken (not to mention that 80% of the time they're also playing with, like, six other optional modes enabled) I just feel like... yes, of course. When you play Super Smash Bros. on a "pro" level you're not playing Giant Melee or Super Sudden Death.

I think a lot of the unbalance of monopolies is that in a lot of ways, it feels the most "real" of the various modes. Like, obviously any mode where you have vampires eating barbarians, or a unit causing tornadoes, or Arthur leading your army to war, yeah, duh, those don't really need balance.

But like, corporations was a feature in an earlier game, and is much closer to real history, that you really hope that it can truly be an "always-on" mode. But it was new, and bound to have flaws, so hopefully in time it will get balanced to truly be closer to a mode that you can turn on and enjoy fully.

 

[leandrombraz]

I just feel like I'm not understanding the conversation altogether. I see all of these modes as naturally, expectedly unbalanced fun time things. So when I see people saying monopolies are broken (not to mention that 80% of the time they're also playing with, like, six other optional modes enabled) I just feel like... yes, of course. When you play Super Smash Bros. on a "pro" level you're not playing Giant Melee or Super Sudden Death.

The game modes are OP, but this modifier isn't just OP, it's broken. It's way, way above anything else in the other game modes, to the point it let you win while actively trying to prevent your victory. It has nothing to do with mixing modes.

 

[679x]

I think a lot of the unbalance of monopolies is that in a lot of ways, it feels the most "real" of the various modes. Like, obviously any mode where you have vampires eating barbarians, or a unit causing tornadoes, or Arthur leading your army to war, yeah, duh, those don't really need balance.

But like, corporations was a feature in an earlier game, and is much closer to real history, that you really hope that it can truly be an "always-on" mode. But it was new, and bound to have flaws, so hopefully in time it will get balanced to truly be closer to a mode that you can turn on and enjoy fully.

I agree with this take. Though I never played the other civ version(s) where corporations were a feature, I still wanted to see this being a base game / always-on expansion feature once people started discussing the idea on these forums. It feels like a natural extension of the luxury resource system, unlike the other optional modes, which feel more like the add-ons they are.

Also, the insane tourism & culture victory speeds still happen in my games with monopolies enabled and other optional modes disabled, to the point where in my most recent game I disabled monopolies because the previous two culture games I played ended before I got to develop my national park system. Of course, the issue was largely solved by just continuing the game after I won, but still, I hope they tune it down a little bit... and maybe once they fix the AI not improving luxuries, they can start being competitive in developing monopolies.

 

[Linklite]

...you just need 8 or 10 resources in a monopoly and then the multipliers are high enough that you're going to win culturally without even trying more often than not.

As in 8-10 resource monopolies? By the time you get that many, an early CV is a mercy killing rather than an OP mechanic, because you're going to win regardless, with that many cities.

That said, I won a game the turn I got economics (and therefore monopolies didn't play a part) based on three resources having industries. When I can win that early, there's something wrong.

 

[7daysofwar]

As in 8-10 resource monopolies? By the time you get that many, an early CV is a mercy killing rather than an OP mechanic, because you're going to win regardless, with that many cities.

That said, I won a game the turn I got economics (and therefore monopolies didn't play a part) based on three resources having industries. When I can win that early, there's something wrong.

You actually don't need that many cities anymore for 8-10 resource monopoly, I had a 6 out of 7 cotton resources in two cities because how close they are clustered with each other, so as long as it isn't a sea resources monopoly, the resources are pretty much clustered with each other and it pretty much gave me a 100% tourism with all other civs very early on.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Yes, they are.
It is something like that:
Corporations + base game = much easier game
Corporations + base game + other mods = ridicolous game
I would never say that something needs to nerf because it breaks the game in a very specific configuration, but a monopoly bonus for all your tourism (not even just a modifier for a specific Civ) plus stacking bonus % for each monopoly + AI not improving luxuries is really a problem which requires a significant nerf. This mode is a really fun and good feature which I would love to add to every game, but not with this kind of crazy buff. You should be really very careful with all x% bonuses in a snowball game because they stack exponentially and can easily become out of control. I think it is quite easy to handle and I expect a change rather soon.

This mode is too good to be like this.

 

[Fomalhaut]

I think a lot of the unbalance of monopolies is that in a lot of ways, it feels the most "real" of the various modes. Like, obviously any mode where you have vampires eating barbarians, or a unit causing tornadoes, or Arthur leading your army to war, yeah, duh, those don't really need balance.

But like, corporations was a feature in an earlier game, and is much closer to real history, that you really hope that it can truly be an "always-on" mode.

Well, no - I don't have high expectations of balance or realism (although it will be great if it is there). In CIV4 it didn't feel very real or balanced how having "Sushi corporation" caused dramatic increase of gold in the headquarters and food in my cities. It felt comparable to Arthur leading the armies now. However in both cases it required at least some minimal skillset and strategy from me as a player. I need to race to found the corporation and afterwards build the corporation executives to spread it in civ4, I need to build some units that Arthur can knight and need to invade my neighbour in civ6. In both cases I have some small sense of achievement and satisfaction for executing on my strategy and beating the AI despite its massive bonuses on higher difficulties. (Btw, it does sound pathetic when I think about it but that's another problem)

However with the current monopolies - I don't need to do anything special. I simply settle around resources on my continent (which I do anyway). I build some parks (which I wanted to do due to Teddy's science bonus) and suddenly due to the ridiculous tourism bonus I have won Deity game out of the blue without even trying. It is way broken even without having any additional modes.