My 80K game journal

[Moonsinger]

I noticed from you domestic advisor screen shot that you are running at 60% entertainment. In the cities that are visable, there is only one unhappy citizen. I have read other posts by you saying that you like to keep your citizens happy. I generally try to keep mine as happy as possible, but don't quite go to that extreme. Would you please explain a little more about your thoughts on this matter? Is this screen shot a just what is happening at this particular part of the game, or do you try to keep maximum happiness from the beginning until the end, and do you do it even if it is detrimental to your other plans?

That was the usual setting in my game during peace time. I have always tried to keep them as happy as possible. During war time, there may be an average of two unhappy faces per city. In this case, I was at peace with everyone and had already made a lot of money from trading and was able to share that with my citizens.

I would like to add my congratulations on this fantastic game.

I would also like to say that your games and your posts have helped greatly in making me a better player. It is a shame that you are going to be leaving the forums. I tend to lurk more than I post, but I, for one, will miss your advice, insight, and probably most of all, the upbeat, helpful, and courteous attitude you display when posting.

Thanks, Big Chief!

 

[EMan]

That was the usual setting in my game during peace time. I have always tried to keep them as happy as possible.

If you were playing on a lower level (say Chieftain), would you crank up the Science until at least Steam Power.....since you wouldn't be behind in Techs like at Sid..........or Not?

 

[Moonsinger]

If you were playing on a lower level (say Chieftain), would you crank up the Science until at least Steam Power.....since you wouldn't be behind in Techs like at Sid..........or Not?

Exactly the main reason why I haven't had any HoF entry for the Chieftain level yet. I have tried for it at least three times, but couldn't break 9000 points. Every time, I cranked up research, I lost points on happiness. I think the ICS building model is really the key to maximize the score at Chieftain level. Deity or Sid is more fun and much easier for me. I just leave all the research to the AIs and focus mainly on expansion and keeping my people happy. Btw, you probably noticed that none of the AIs forming any alliance against me during war time. I think there may be a logical explaination for that. Here is the basic blue print of my banking and controlling the AI cashflow:

I checked with the AIs almost every turn to see if they have anything (either tech for sale or gold for loan). If they have tech for sale, that's great. I just buy it and turn around to sell/trade with the rest of the world. We all know how to do this; there isn't anything new here. If they have a chunk of gold, I would simply convince them to open a saving account with me. On another word, I just ask them to deposit all their gold at my bank (loan me all their gold) and I would let them to withdraw a small amount to spend in every turn (pay them back gpt). That way, they can't blow away all their gold on some silly thing like upgrading their units or forming an alliance against me. Since I'm their banker, it's usually not in their best interest to harm me. Therefore, even when I'm at war with one of them. The rest of them would simply do nothing against me. Of course, once in awhile, one of them may be stupid enough to declare war on me. Well, I'm not responsible for their silliness.

 

[Moonsinger]

For example, let say that the Russian Empire is the top researcher which means she has a chance to sell her tech during her discovering turn. In this case, she is making a lot of profit and becoming very rich. I'm very happy for her because having a rich and powerful friend/client may come in handy some days.

1. Let's say that she has 4000 gold in her treasury. Of course, if we don't do anything about that soon, she may waste all of her money in playing blackjack or something. We need to show her how to invest her money for the future, etc.

2. It would be real nice if she deposit her 4000 gold at our bank. According to our banking code, she would be earning back an allowance of 225 gpt (not an actual/optimal number, the actually GPT could me a little bit more or less) for 20 turns. After 20 turns, her initial 4000 investment with us would become 4500. Therefore, in this case, we are actually helping her to become even richer.

3. Since she is gaining 225 gpt from us, plus other gpt income from her tech dealing with other civs, plus her own income, she would always have some money left over at the end of her turn. In this case, we would simply convince her to make another deposit into our bank (repeat this procedure every turn); no problem there!

Our long term profit: Of course, like any banker, we would usually use our client money to make more money. That's the only way we can generate enough profit to pay back our loan plus interests. Since all of our clients have no beneficiary, if they happen to die of nature cause or something (like being destroyed by another Civ or breaking peace treaty with us, backstabbing us, ...), all their investment would automatically belong to us. What can I say...with this banking system, we can't possibly lose. The stronger and richer our clients become, the richer and stronger we shall become.

 

[a space oddity]

I'm going to use that one, Moonsinger!

 

[EMan]

1. Let's say that she has 4000 gold in her treasury. Of course, if we don't do anything about that soon, she may waste all of her money in playing blackjack or something.

....or Russian Roulette!

My question is: If you have good relations with the AI, will they always lend you a lump sum?.........Do you just use the Foreign Adviser to specify the minimum gpt the AI will accept to "do the deal"?

 

[Moonsinger]

You're welcome, Space Oddity. Just keep in mind that all AI civs have no beneficiary. In the worse case, you can always order their assassination or something.

My question is: If you have good relations with the AI, will they always lend you a lump sum?.........Do you just use the Foreign Adviser to specify the minimum gpt the AI will accept to "do the deal"?

Good relations with the AI isn't necessary. Here is a sample screen shot of a furious Russian willing to make an investment at my bank.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ms_sid5_loan_example1.jpg

Just as long as you can pay them 9% interest (9% is the interest rate for Sid level; it may be lower at other level), they will desposit into your bank. The AIs just love invest their money! Even when they are on the brink of destruction, they would not hesitate to make more investment for their future. Anyway, in order for them to accept the deal, you must offer them an interest rate of 9% (that's the bottom line; they won't go for less).

 

[zerksees]

... We need to show her how to invest her money for the future, etc. ...

Oooh. Awesome.

It's too late to help my current effort (already well into milking phase) but will make things easier in future games.

At first glance, the main benefit I see here is adding a level of predictability to the game.

 

[Moonsinger]

I think I'm going to call it the end because this game had already been over a long time ago. Who would want to read about the past anyway? Once I had my banking business up running and had Saltpeter, the AIs were pretty much working for me to the end. I just took my time to eliminate them one by one. Although I didn't use the SirPleb's Funnel of Doom in my game, I contructed endless lines of barricade to trap their zillion doomday units, then blasted them with my artilleries. It was mostly artillery & cavalry vs the AI Infantry & TOW Infantry for the rest of the game. This was in fact an awesome map to play after the industrial age. Those who got oil had no rubber and those who had rubber had no oil. My Mayan was the only civ that had all the resources. If you want know more about this game, you can replay my save game; it can be downloaded at http://hof.civfanatics.net (just look for the 80K game). Farewell for now; our path may cross again in Civ4. Life is way too short; I don't know if I will live long enough to see Civ4; nevertheless, I shouldn't waste it all on Civ3.

 

[EMan]

@Moonsinger: They say that playing Civ is addictive........I hope you will NOT prove them wrong!

P.s. RL includes Civ!

 

[Timko]

Great game Moonsinger.

I'd just like to ask what you did differently than SirPleb in order to get a better score? I know you were brokering techs a lot whilst SirPleb used the Great Library to jump to the Industrial Age. How were you able to do so much tech trading when the AI charges so much? I know you were then selling them on but how could you afford them in the first place? How fast did you eliminate the other AI's compared to SirPleb and about what time did you get all the luxuries and reach the domination limit?

Timko

 

[Moonsinger]

Great game Moonsinger.

I'd just like to ask what you did differently than SirPleb in order to get a better score? I know you were brokering techs a lot whilst SirPleb used the Great Library to jump to the Industrial Age. How were you able to do so much tech trading when the AI charges so much? I know you were then selling them on but how could you afford them in the first place? How fast did you eliminate the other AI's compared to SirPleb and about what time did you get all the luxuries and reach the domination limit?

Timko

For one thing, my game was played after SirPleb first Sid attempt and I was paying close attention to his game. Also, it was his first Sid attempt (I think); therefore, he left me a lot of breathing room there! Thanks SirPleb! I couldn't do it without reading about his tactic. In most cases, I was able to avoid most of the problem that he encountered in his game. I also was bless with a huge island to begin with; a lot of room to expand and didn't have to go to war until 400AD. My civ became Republic around 300 BC (IIRC) while SirPleb stayed in Monarchy all the way to 2050AD. Since my empire was huge, and most of my cities was greater than size 6 by 10AD, I didn't have to pay much for units support under Republic.

In order to make money, we must have money to begin with - exactly why I had been saving money since 4000BC. Once I got the ball rolling, more money will come from trading tech (communication & worldmap too). Plus getting loans from the AIs, I was able to buy any tech at any cost. Note: just because we can buy the tech at any cost, don't do it unless we can sell/trade it to get most of our money back right away. If not, let the AIs make the trade, then ask them to lend us all their gold instead. The key here is to keep the AI treasury empty at all time. Because it takes money to make money, without a lot of money, the AIs couldn't do much trading later on (plus they may be in multiple of wars too); therefore, we eventually will have total control of the world market. Of course, once in awhile, we may run into trouble of having to pay back all those loans to the AI. Well, not to worry! Since none of our lenders have any beneficiary, we would have no trouble at all to cancel those loans while keeping their initial gold deposit (of course) without hurting our reputation. I have been emphazing on the word "beneficiary" many times in this thread; I hope you see what I mean.

PS: I finished the Bach's by 90AD; may be that helped my overall score a little bit.

 

[Moonsinger]

@Moonsinger: They say that playing Civ is addictive........I hope you will NOT prove them wrong!

Not any more! I just remove all Civs from my at home last night. Clearing out about 10 Gigs of diskspace. At of this moment, I'm free of Civ and I hope to keep it that way for another day - I'm just trying to take one baby step at a time here.

 

[SirPleb]

Thanks for sharing your innovative banker strategy with us Moonsinger! I'll definitely be trying it. It sounds like fun as well as being powerful. I think I'll have to play it to understand the nuances. As I see it in theory, if an AI is at peace with us, we win because it has a cash shortage for other trading and it also accumulates obsolete units which it can't upgrade. When war eventually comes the obsolete units will be easy and will give lots of leader opportunities. OTOH if the AI goes to war with us (or v.v. ), we win whatever gpt we owe that AI at the time. A very creative approach to Sid level!

It sounds like your RL can't work well with a Civ addiction at this time. Good for you to realize it and handle it This 80K game is a wonderful note for you to stop on. And it gives us an awesome game to admire. I hope you know that if your RL can one day work well with a Civ addiction, there will be many CivFanatics cheering your return to active play!

 

[fret]

Thats fascinating stuff about the banking

Do you start the banker thing as soon as humanly possible, or do you wait until they have a reasonable stash of cash?

 

[Moonsinger]

Do you start the banker thing as soon as humanly possible, or do you wait until they have a reasonable stash of cash?

I usually get the loan from them whenever trading with them isn't profitable. For example, at one point in my game, Russia was the tech leader and also was the richest civ. She managed to come up with new tech in every 4 turns. Since the rest of the Civ was pretty much out of gold; they were owing Russia and me a lot of gpt and couldn't afford to buy any thing else from me (you can easily test this by offering them something for as little as 1gpt; if they couldn't even afford 1gpt, they don't have anything else to give). In this case, if I buy any tech from Russia, I won't be able to sell it to anyone else. It was a perfect setting for me to get loan after loan from Russia until she ran out of money (as shown in the previous screenshot). Shortly after that, she declared war on me; I ended up with at least 4000 gold in profit (excluding the amount that I already repaid her). Of course, I used that money to unite the world against her. Since everyone were at war against Russia, she couldn't trade with anyone and eventually had to trade some of her techs in exchange for peace.

 

[Moonsinger]

Thanks for sharing your innovative banker strategy with us Moonsinger! I'll definitely be trying it. It sounds like fun as well as being powerful. I think I'll have to play it to understand the nuances. As I see it in theory, if an AI is at peace with us, we win because it has a cash shortage for other trading and it also accumulates obsolete units which it can't upgrade. When war eventually comes the obsolete units will be easy and will give lots of leader opportunities. OTOH if the AI goes to war with us (or v.v. ), we win whatever gpt we owe that AI at the time. A very creative approach to Sid level!

It sounds like your RL can't work well with a Civ addiction at this time. Good for you to realize it and handle it This 80K game is a wonderful note for you to stop on. And it gives us an awesome game to admire. I hope you know that if your RL can one day work well with a Civ addiction, there will be many CivFanatics cheering your return to active play!

Thanks for your kind words, SirPleb! You have always been an inspiration to me and I have learned alot from you. You were the main reason I came to this site (two years ago). Originally, it was your milking (the bible on how to maximizing score) article that drew me here. After all these time, I still love what you said many years ago:

Finally, something I like to do in milked games which has nothing to do with score, but seems right to me for this kind of game: Improve the landscape. After the last war I use my military to destroy all the so-called "improvements" in territory which I won't be settling. I then use workers to plant forests, create a simple rail system, and create lots of paths (roads) through the woods. It doesn't take much longer to do this and the end result seems more satisfying to me.

 

[a space oddity]

I remember reading that... and liking it. Thanks for digging that up.

 

[binyo66]

I usually get the loan from them whenever trading with them isn't profitable. For example, at one point in my game, Russia was the tech leader and also was the richest civ. She managed to come up with new tech in every 4 turns. Since the rest of the Civ was pretty much out of gold; they were owing Russia and me a lot of gpt and couldn't afford to buy any thing else from me (you can easily test this by offering them something for as little as 1gpt; if they couldn't even afford 1gpt, they don't have anything else to give). In this case, if I buy any tech from Russia, I won't be able to sell it to anyone else. It was a perfect setting for me to get loan after loan from Russia until she ran out of money (as shown in the previous screenshot). Shortly after that, she declared war on me; I ended up with at least 4000 gold in profit (excluding the amount that I already repaid her). Of course, I used that money to unite the world against her. Since everyone were at war against Russia, she couldn't trade with anyone and eventually had to trade some of her techs in exchange for peace.

@moonsinger : I dont get it, how come russia ran out of money. She got more than 100gpt from u + their own gpt?
or could someone explain it to me here

 

[superslug]

@moonsinger : I dont get it, how come russia ran out of money. She got more than 100gpt from u + their own gpt?
or could someone explain it to me here

I can't say for sure (not my game) but I'd venture it got spent on unit maintenance. Considering the production bonus the AI gets on Sid, the free unit upkeep gets used up real quick.