My proposal for a new leader for Germany

[aieeegrunt]

Conrad von Hotzendorf and Luigi Cadorna:

Man there is always a bigger fish

More incompetent fish?

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Man there is always a bigger fish

More incompetent fish?

Much more incompetent.

 

[aieeegrunt]

Much more incompetent.

I mean they tried their best (worst?) but...

Wilhelm II:

*Insists on completely unneccessary naval race with Great Britain*

*Great Britain joins the other side*

SurprisePikachuImPickelhaubenFace

*Forbids Navy from actually being used, uses Uboats instead*

*United States joins the other side*

SurprisePikachuInPickelhaubenFace

Seriously the ONE TIME HE WAS RIGHT, about not invading Belgium, was THE ONE TIME HE ALLOWED HIS MIND TO BE CHANGED

 

[Xheeva]

I wanted an option to be able to choose between U-Bot or Panzer tank or Blitzkrieg planes. When entering an era, choose ONE of those options.

 

[JeanMi]

I wanted an option to be able to choose between U-Bot or Panzer tank or Blitzkrieg planes. When entering an era, choose ONE of those options.

Yes I would also like more flexibility in the choice of the unit

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

OK Bismarc (There's already a leader mod by Sukrit) should be one of many alternative leaders of Germany. REQUIRES APRIL 2021 PATCH.
His unique ability: Kultrkampf
His adgenda: Klein Deuschland (Protector of CS, disdainful to anyone competing to win their existing CS and easy to go war it it happens.)
His UU: Needle Gunner
- Infantry replacement armed with Dreyse Needle Gun, available with rifling rather than replaceable parts, earns more combat strenght with Replaceable Parts.
OR
Prussian Fusilier
- Same as above but instead replaces linear infantry, began with the same strenght, no benefits earned from either French Imperial Guard or Brits redcoats BUT, +2 Strenghts with rifling and +1 with Steam Power.

Graphical representations.

 

[Azzebox]

OK Bismarc (There's already a leader mod by Sukrit) should be one of many alternative leaders of Germany. REQUIRES APRIL 2021 PATCH.
His unique ability: Kultrkampf
His adgenda: Klein Deuschland (Protector of CS, disdainful to anyone competing to win their existing CS and easy to go war it it happens.)
His UU: Needle Gunner
- Infantry replacement armed with Dreyse Needle Gun, available with rifling rather than replaceable parts, earns more combat strenght with Replaceable Parts.
OR
Prussian Fusilier
- Same as above but instead replaces linear infantry, began with the same strenght, no benefits earned from either French Imperial Guard or Brits redcoats BUT, +2 Strenghts with rifling and +1 with Steam Power.
View attachment 596870

Graphical representations.

I didn't understand why this mod gave Bismarck as an exclusive ability "the kulturkampf" when the kulturkampf was precisely one of his biggest mistakes and the measure was a total failure, so much so that he had to abandon it in 1887.
By the way, very beautiful Pickelhaube !

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ If Kulturkampf is bad, then.. Klein Deutschland is better? or what else should be Bismarc's UA?

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

The problem with Bismarck/Germany combination is that the popular image (which all too often is what Firaxis has embraced) is "The Iron Chancellor" or "Blood and Iron" militaristic Bismarck.
I think his far more important legacy was the Social Democratic system or Industrial Socialism he adopted from Krupp (of all people!) and which is still the basis for the German social system, even after such minor disruptions as World Wars One and Two and the Nazis. While I suppose a nod to Bismarckian Diplomacy is semi-mandatory, giving a bigger nod to his Internal stability, loyalty, civic and Social Policy achievements would be even more appropriate. Since he inherited the German/Prussian military system that gave rise to the 'warmongering' German meme, reflect that in the Unique Unit and Civilization Attributes rather than any Leader connection.

Then 'Klein Deutschland' should be his UA or Agenda? or what?
And do you agree with Needle Gunner being his UU? replace EITHER Line Infantry (under the name 'Prussian Fusilier' but earns additional combat strenght with Rifling and Steam Engine), OR Infantry (Under the name Needle Gunner, Available with Rifling rather than Replaceable parts).

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Then 'Klein Deutschland' should be his UA or Agenda? or what?
And do you agree with Needle Gunner being his UU? replace EITHER Line Infantry (under the name 'Prussian Fusilier' but earns additional combat strenght with Rifling and Steam Engine), OR Infantry (Under the name Needle Gunner, Available with Rifling rather than Replaceable parts).

Okay, here goes:
Otto von Bismarck
Alternate Leader Germany
Unique Ability:
State Socialism (Staatssozialismus)
Every Industrial District produces + 10% population growth, + 1 Amenity, and + 2 Loyalty in that City.
(NOTE: Bismarck's Sickness Insurance Law of 1883, Accident Insurance Law of 1884, and Pension Retirement Law of 1889 were the basis of what is called German State Socialism or the modern "Welfare State". The sickness insurance also had a marked positive effect on longevity and health: hence the population growth in the UA)

Unique Unit:
Jäger (or Jaeger)
Available at Rifling.
Can be Upgraded from Line Infantry at half the usual cost.
(NOTE: "Needlegunner" is an artificial term: never use one of those if there is an actual alternative. The Dreyse Needle Gun, in fact, was originally issued to the Prussian Jägers starting in 1841, and only expanded to the regular infantry in 1848. By that time, however, there was no real difference between the training and tactics (and uniform) of the Jaegers and the infantry, so we can use the realistic title and also get the distinctive uniforms and general increase in combat power during the late Industrial Era that we associate with Bismarck's Prussia and Imperial Germany.)

Agenda:
Realpolitik
Does not like any state sharing borders with him who is bigger than he is (number of cities or population). Will seek alliances with any other state against such a neighbor.
Will not attack City States that do not share a border with him and will oppose any other state attacking a City State that shares a border with him.
(NOTE: Everybody thinks of the Aggressive Bismarck that established the German Empire, but that lasted only 9 years: for the next 20 years he carefully kept the peace in Europe by adroit diplomacy and opposed aggressive German military or diplomatic actions.)

 

[aieeegrunt]

Okay, here goes:
Otto von Bismarck
Alternate Leader Germany
Unique Ability:
State Socialism (Staatssozialismus)
Every Industrial District produces + 10% population growth, + 1 Amenity, and + 2 Loyalty in that City.
(NOTE: Bismarck's Sickness Insurance Law of 1883, Accident Insurance Law of 1884, and Pension Retirement Law of 1889 were the basis of what is called German State Socialism or the modern "Welfare State". The sickness insurance also had a marked positive effect on longevity and health: hence the population growth in the UA)

Unique Unit:
Jäger (or Jaeger)
Available at Rifling.
Can be Upgraded from Line Infantry at half the usual cost.
(NOTE: "Needlegunner" is an artificial term: never use one of those if there is an actual alternative. The Dreyse Needle Gun, in fact, was originally issued to the Prussian Jägers starting in 1841, and only expanded to the regular infantry in 1848. By that time, however, there was no real difference between the training and tactics (and uniform) of the Jaegers and the infantry, so we can use the realistic title and also get the distinctive uniforms and general increase in combat power during the late Industrial Era that we associate with Bismarck's Prussia and Imperial Germany.)

Agenda:
Realpolitik
Does not like any state sharing borders with him who is bigger than he is (number of cities or population). Will seek alliances with any other state against such a neighbor.
Will not attack City States that do not share a border with him and will oppose any other state attacking a City State that shares a border with him.
(NOTE: Everybody thinks of the Aggressive Bismarck that established the German Empire, but that lasted only 9 years: for the next 20 years he carefully kept the peace in Europe by adroit diplomacy and opposed aggressive German military or diplomatic actions.)

This is perfect!!!

 

[Ryansinbela]

My thoughts

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Okay, here goes:
Otto von Bismarck


Unique Unit:
Jäger (or Jaeger)
Available at Rifling.
Can be Upgraded from Line Infantry at half the usual cost.
(NOTE: "Needlegunner" is an artificial term: never use one of those if there is an actual alternative. The Dreyse Needle Gun, in fact, was originally issued to the Prussian Jägers starting in 1841, and only expanded to the regular infantry in 1848. By that time, however, there was no real difference between the training and tactics (and uniform) of the Jaegers and the infantry, so we can use the realistic title and also get the distinctive uniforms and general increase in combat power during the late Industrial Era that we associate with Bismarck's Prussia and Imperial Germany.)

Isn't Jager actually means a kinda ranger? (or the 'ranger' should have a movement of mounted (5) while Jager actually means a kind of light infantry that later became a norm)
Is this unit replaces Infantry or exists between the two?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Isn't Jager actually means a kinda ranger? (or the 'ranger' should have a movement of mounted (5) while Jager actually means a kind of light infantry that later became a norm)
Is this unit replaces Infantry or exists between the two?

"Jäger" means 'hunter' in German. The word was applied to the first rifle-armed troops raised by Hesse in Germany in 1631, and the first rifle-armed troops raised by Prussia in 1744. By and after the 19th century it was used as part of any term for specialized or elite troops, for example Fallschirmjäger = paratroops, or Gebirgsjäger = mountain troops.

What makes the word useful for the game is that after the Napoleonic Wars 'light infantry' in the Prussian forces were identical in training and use to the regular 'line' infantry. The infantry regulations of 1812 had called for any infantry to be able to fight in skirmish order if necessary, and by the time the first needle gun breechloading rifles were issued to Jäger units 1841, they were virtually identical to the regular infantry.

By the way, giving light musket or rifle-armed infantry increased speed compared to regular infantry armed with the same weapons is utterly wrong unless you are going to have the movement work on a tactical battlefield. At the strategic scale of Civ VI they move at the same speed. In fact, every military writer from the time (1750 to 1870) is in agreement that the major problem with light infantry skirmishing or in open order is that once they've found a nice tree to hide behind and take shots at the enemy, you cannot get them to advance or attack at all. In effect they are strictly 'ranged' troops, unlike regular infantry in close order ('line' infantry) under direct supervision of their officers who can be led into a charge. This would be important if we were using a Humankind-like tactical battle layout, but not so much in Civ VI which 'fights' at a larger scale and higher level of detail.
By the time troops were armed with rifles (1850s) all the armies were well aware that the traditional 'bayonet charge' was nearly suicidal and were trying to find ways of combining open formations to avoid making large targets with being able to charge home and drive the enemy off. Nobody found an answer, which in a nutshell explains the ghastly casualties in attempted charges like Pickett at Gettysburg or Hood at Franklin or the Prussian Guards at St Privat-Gravelotte - or, for that matter, everybody in the opening weeks of World War One.

This is also why I am ambivalent about the 'traditional' Civ unit, the Rifleman. Basically, it represents the black powder rifled musket or breechloader, which was the primary weapon for 'modern' infantry for about 40 years (1850 to 1890) and then was replaced by the smokeless powder magazine rifle that most armies carried until after 1945. But during the entire 'rifle' period the tactics were still largely that of the smoothbore musket period that preceded it (1700 - 1850), except less effective and resulting in massacres like the attacks mentioned above. At the moment, I think the 'rifle' period is better modeled using Unique unis like the Prussian/Bismarckian Jäger or 'light' infantry like Rangers

This is perfect!!!

Uh, nothing is Perfect', least of all game mechanics. This is simply my attempt to come up with a Non-Militarist Bismarck to show other directions that a German Civ could take in the game, and relating as much as possible to the specific initiatives that Bismarck was largely responsible for.

Other 'non-military' ways to take Germany might be to emphasize the Zollverein system that protected and encouraged the rise of German heavy industry and especially the technical advance of the German chemical industry, which led the world for over 100 years, or the establishment of the technical education establishments that gave Germany the best-trained work force in the world for most of the same period. None of these, though, are directly related to Bismarck, so would probably be better as Civ Uniques than Leader Uniques - and given Germany's current 'Hansa' Unique Production District, they are already alluded to in the current version of Germany.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

"Jäger" means 'hunter' in German. The word was applied to the first rifle-armed troops raised by Hesse in Germany in 1631, and the first rifle-armed troops raised by Prussia in 1744. By and after the 19th century it was used as part of any term for specialized or elite troops, for example Fallschirmjäger = paratroops, or Gebirgsjäger = mountain troops.

What makes the word useful for the game is that after the Napoleonic Wars 'light infantry' in the Prussian forces were identical in training and use to the regular 'line' infantry. The infantry regulations of 1812 had called for any infantry to be able to fight in skirmish order if necessary, and by the time the first needle gun breechloading rifles were issued to Jäger units 1841, they were virtually identical to the regular infantry.

By the way, giving light musket or rifle-armed infantry increased speed compared to regular infantry armed with the same weapons is utterly wrong unless you are going to have the movement work on a tactical battlefield. At the strategic scale of Civ VI they move at the same speed. In fact, every military writer from the time (1750 to 1870) is in agreement that the major problem with light infantry skirmishing or in open order is that once they've found a nice tree to hide behind and take shots at the enemy, you cannot get them to advance or attack at all. In effect they are strictly 'ranged' troops, unlike regular infantry in close order ('line' infantry) under direct supervision of their officers who can be led into a charge. This would be important if we were using a Humankind-like tactical battle layout, but not so much in Civ VI which 'fights' at a larger scale and higher level of detail.
By the time troops were armed with rifles (1850s) all the armies were well aware that the traditional 'bayonet charge' was nearly suicidal and were trying to find ways of combining open formations to avoid making large targets with being able to charge home and drive the enemy off. Nobody found an answer, which in a nutshell explains the ghastly casualties in attempted charges like Pickett at Gettysburg or Hood at Franklin or the Prussian Guards at St Privat-Gravelotte - or, for that matter, everybody in the opening weeks of World War One.

This is also why I am ambivalent about the 'traditional' Civ unit, the Rifleman. Basically, it represents the black powder rifled musket or breechloader, which was the primary weapon for 'modern' infantry for about 40 years (1850 to 1890) and then was replaced by the smokeless powder magazine rifle that most armies carried until after 1945. But during the entire 'rifle' period the tactics were still largely that of the smoothbore musket period that preceded it (1700 - 1850), except less effective and resulting in massacres like the attacks mentioned above. At the moment, I think the 'rifle' period is better modeled using Unique unis like the Prussian/Bismarckian Jäger or 'light' infantry like Rangers
.

Then.
1. Rangers graphical representations as wild west 'cowboys' are correct? And their roles as 'light infantry' with movement of 3 is what Fxis got its right too? if so this made them effectively ACW Sharpshooters as well
2. Renaissance Recon class unit please (Someone between Skirmisher and Ranger)
3. And Prussian Jagers (Bismarc UU) should replace rangers or came to exists between Linear Infantry and Infantry or replace Inf (available earlier)?

 

[Phrozen]

The current ranger is basically based on Rogers Rangers from the French and Indian War who formalized strategies and tactics used by earlier colonial and Native American forces in battle. Quick moving light infantry for scouting and raiding but weren't really going to the stand in a line and in a pitched battle. The Overmountain Men were another inspiration.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The current ranger is basically based on Rogers Rangers from the French and Indian War who formalized strategies and tactics used by earlier colonial and Native American forces in battle. Quick moving light infantry for scouting and raiding but weren't really going to the stand in a line and in a pitched battle. The Overmountain Men were another inspiration.

The unit is inspired by Roger's Rangers or perhaps the 'Free Companies' of light troops used all over Europe in the mid-18th century, but the unit graphic looks suspiciously like an American Mountain Man of the early 19th century, which is a bit bizarre - they were civilians and notoriously not big on cooperating with either government or military unless well paid.

And the problem with Scouts in general is that a lot of armies and a lot of military 'eras' didn't use them much, or at all, so many of the 'scout' units in the game are, basically, Artificial. For instance, the closest thing to a 'scout' in the Ancient/Classical Eras would be unarmored light infantry with javelins and/or slings, but in the game those are ranged units (or in the case of the near-ubiquitous javelin-throwers completely missing from the game) with no particular vision or movement advantages over 'regular' troops.

By the time of the Renaissance scouting should really be done by light cavalry, except that, in Europe at least, there aren't any: anybody who could afford a horse was an aristocrat who was determined to take part in battle, not sneak around counting enemy noses, so he shows up armored and armed and determined to charge somebody. The nearest thing to 'scouts' are Dragoons - first raised in the 1620 as virtually the only unarmored cavalry around, because they were originally supposed to dismount to fight with muskets, not fight on horseback at all. In both the English Civil War and the Thirty Year's War they were frequently used as advanced guards, skirmishers, and to raid and pillage the enemy territory ('enemy' being pretty loosely defined as "anybody with anything worth taking") - and occasionally bring back information about the enemy.

You really don't start getting 'professional' scouting units again until the Industrial Era, but even then they aren't always that good. The European cavalry was so fixated on the battlefield that in the Franco-Prussian War (1870 - 71) the American observers Sheridan and Wilson (both cavalry commanders with US Civil War experience) noted that on occasion enemy armies were less than 5 miles apart and had no idea that the opponent was anywhere near - the 'light' cavalry on both sides was almost comically inept at scouting and reconnaissance!

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ So then. Rangers, available with TECH_RIFLING, with 1-hex range, and a movent of 3 is considered 'correct'? do you have any proposals to tweak this unit in addition to previously mentioned predecessor?

 

[earlofbrigand]

Always invades France
+5 combat strength against Poland
-10 health per turn in tundra

OR if post WW2 version

Isn't allowed to produce any military units

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Always invades France
+5 combat strength against Poland
-10 health per turn in tundra

OR if post WW2 version

Isn't allowed to produce any military units

This is the problem with "recent memory" - the first set of UAs would be true for a Humankind-like Industrial Era Germany only:

Between 1650 and 1850 France invaded Germany 150 times, not the other way around.

If anybody beats on Poland, I think you will find it is Russia rather than Germany for most of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries. And Poland beating on most of its neighbors for the 15th century before that . . .

In 1675, in a winter campaign after moving his infantry 250 km in 15 days over ice and snow, the Great Elector of Prussia beat the snot out of the Swedes in the Battle of Fehrbellin and in 1678 moved his infantry in sleighs in a winter campaign to beat them again: no tundra problem at all.

On the other hand, if there is a single consistent 'military problem' that Germany has, it is making any offensive campaign more than 500 km from the German border work, whether it was in Russia or North Africa, or earlier, anywhere other than western Poland or France/northwestern Europe.
In sports terms, they couldn't Win on the Road.