Having recently completed a domination win with Napoleon I noted that the starting position was ideal to test the merits of rushing to National College (NC) first or after about 3 more cities were built.
I made two scenarios - first with an NC first strategy, second building 3 additional cities and then NC.
My conclusion is that on almost all measures it is better to build at least 3 additional cities before NC.
Game Setup: Napoleon, King, Continents, Large, Marathon
Starting Position
Spoiler:
On a standard sized continent. The only other Civ on the island is Alexander, and he is on the opposite side of Singapore which blocks the route between our parts of the island. To the south is Bucharest, which nearly blocks the passage to a third, uninhabited part of the island. There are good coastal/riverside positions for a number of cities not too far away from the capital. The capital has 1 marble and 2 golds in the next expansion ring.
Initial moves - and moves common to both strategies
Spoiler:
Build second warrior - use the two warriors to suppress all barbarian activities, then build a worker
Research (throughout the game - both strategies): Mining/Masonry (to exploit the gold and marble) Pottery/Calendar to exploit silk to the south, then Writing, then Animal Husbandry/Trapping - then beeline Navigation. (Interestingly although I did the same sequence in both scenarios the automated beeline to Navigation took different paths through the techs - in the NC first scenario it went Philosophy/Theology in the NC second scenario it went Sailing/Optics/Compass)
Policies (throughout the game - both strategies):
Tradition/Liberty/Aristocracy/Legalism
Improvements (throughout the game - both strategies):
Marble, 2 Gold mines, farms near capital, Silk to the south
(in the NC first case I built one farm near the capital before the gold mines - this may have been a mistake as gold was always a bit of a problem with this scenario)
In both scenarios the Capital built Stonehenge when there was nothing else to build.
NC Second scenario
Spoiler:
Build 3 settlers and found cities immediately - start building workers in newly founded cities (but none of the workers had completed before NC was built)
As soon as Writing was completed (which happened after the 3 cities were settled) change production in all cities to Library. (No rush buy as there wasn't enough money)
There was a food shortage in the capital - which was fixed by allying with Singapore (one of the bordering City States).
Once all libraries were built, switch the capital to National College.
The National College was built on turn 242 (1080BC)
NC First strategy
Spoiler:
Prebuild about 1.3 settlers while waiting for Writing and also while waiting for money to rush buy the Library!
Rush buy Library once enough money was available (Turn 117)
Couldnt' afford to ally with Singapore - but bought Friendship with them on turn 185 - but I couldn't afford to renew the friendship when it expired.
Continued to build settlers and found cities as quickly as possible.
The third city was founded on turn 196 (1540BC)
For comparison purposes this scenario was continued until turn 242 (1080BC) the same date as the NC second strategy completed.
Results:
Spoiler:
NC Second strategy completed on turn 242 with
Beakers per turn 39, Gold per turn 12, Happy 2, GA 1002/1540, Culture 250/1405 +18
Totals for all cities: Citizens 16, Food 13.5, Production 23
(note there was an alliance with Maritime Singapore)
NC First strategy Turn 242
Beakers per turn 31, Gold per turn 10, Happy 3, GA 1445/1540, Culture 900/915 +18
Totals for all cities: Citizens 13, Food 11, Production 20
(note in this case there were no alliances or friendships - couldn't afford them at this point).
Analysis:
On every measure the NC second strategy gives a better position at turn 242 (which is when the NC is complete in both scenarios and the three additional cities are built.) Perhaps if I had improved the gold mines sooner it would have been possible to maintain the friendship with Singapore - in which case the position might have been a bit better for the NC first scenario!
Also further testing could be done to test for the 2 additional cities or 4 additional cities scenarios - but I'll leave that to someone else.
btw: I've been playing Civ V for about 6 weeks - and have been a close follower of this forum. This is my first post - so please forgive me for any errors!
Hammers are king, and beakers queen. You are correct, 4city NC works very well. Its best done via settling on 2 luxuries, and having at least 4 luxuries total in your empire. Otherwise, I recommend 3city NC or 2city NC.
1city NC is crappy without a WONDERFUL start, in which case it may be slightly better than alternatives.
Beakers are king only if you attempt to have a military tech edge. Can be done for Longswordmen. I agree about 1 city NC is crappy without a good start. But only a good start. Not a wonderful start. With crappy start, you can always build settlers almost as fast as very nice ones because food is included for settlers production.
If I don't build it after settling the 3rd or 4th city I usually do it in renaissance when the effect of the +5 is greatly reduced. Sometimes its just too tempting to settle a lot of great city sites early.
You can always take Liberty for 50% settler discount to get these cities very fast after NC. It's only one policy in the tree after all. Combine this with Tradition 50% excess food and you will pump settlers like mad. Use the huge overflow to put hammers in things you will need (worker,units,etc.). Then choose a settler again for next build.
On quick speed i have rarely the time to build a monument before a library and i need an extra warrior to protect settlers but on slower speed it's ok i guess. No bonus for worker production, so keep cash form sold luxuries to buy workers instead.
Tradition food isn't used for settler production and food isn't used for calculating liberty extra production but yeah, that also came to my mind. With the capital large and likely having a lot of production, Liberty is probably better for an NC first start.
Analysis:
On every measure the NC second strategy gives a better position at turn 242 (which is when the NC is complete in both scenarios and the three additional cities are built.)
you didn't account for the fact that for 90ish? turns on the nc second run you were missing that capital population + 7.5 beakers per turn. (so maybe 11-13ish per turn) your NC first is done with philosophy, which will take 10 turns at current estimate for NC second. you're working on theology and have 18 turns left, which says it'll take 21 turns for nc second, so in 18 turns you'll still be 13 turns behind on nc 2nd.
my playing is completely different than yours, so it's apples vs clementines, but my nc first on your map ended up with a measly 35 bpt; i only built 2 extra cities.
on the plus side, the techs i have that you don't are:
the wheel,
bronze working,
philosophy,
construction,
iron working,
theology,
civil service.
i am starting education.
you have archery and compass.
i got 90 culture from first ruins (bought tradition),
crudely drawn map,
pottery (when i was 3/4ths done with it),
and 95 gold. clearly could have been better but the early culture is really good.
my tech order was something like... pottery -> writing -> mining -> masonry -> animal husbandry -> trapping -> philosophy -> (civil service via great library) -> calendar -> sailing -> optics
my build order was worker -> scout -> start great library -> buy library turn i can and switch to NC -> settler-> finish great library to slingshot civil service.
i gifted 500 to singapore, they requested the pyramids so i built that and they temporarily were allied. paris built stonehenge, then the oracle, so i opened patronage and got the +25% greater influence from gold gifts and allied them with another 500. on turn 242 i'm at 90 influence with them.
as soon as i had optics i sent scout to meet greece and sold them gold, and used that to rush buy 2nd settler. since i never made 4th city i hit my golden age on turn 236.
Your strats are not focused on science at all.
When going for NC first, definately rush for writing first, max out food asap(tradition, maritime CS, farms), then improve some production tiles, so that you still can start getting settlers early and very fast.
When not going for NC first, you might be better off to start with mining or calendar for a resource, then go for writing immediately. Get liberty asap. Dont let your unhappinness slow your growth.
My opinion on the subject:
NC first is a less versatile strategy, but in good circumstances it gives me better science (and if thats my focus then also overall) results. Basically you need to be able to get your capital to a super-big city very fast - like 20 citizens by turn 100 on quick speed or so. That obviously requires either a very good and food-rich starting location or playing Siam (or another civ that has some food bonus available if there is any). Also, you need to not have a close and aggressive neighbour both in terms of warfare and expansion (which obviously makes it only usable against AI).
I think the best number of cities before NC is three (capital included).
Buildorder in capital: Worker -> Warrior -> Settler -> (possibly Great Library) -> Library -> NC
Buildorder 2nd city: Library (focus on production @ size 2-3) -> Monument or Worker or Scout etc.
Buildorder 3rd city: Buy library (I usually have 420 right after I get the 3rd city)
Tech: Mining or AH (Mining for chopping a forest or improving luxuries, AH for good production tiles) -> Pottery -> Writing
Tradition food isn't used for settler production and food isn't used for calculating liberty extra production but yeah, that also came to my mind. With the capital large and likely having a lot of production, Liberty is probably better for an NC first start.
Yes, I agree that Liberty could be quite interesting if you go NC first to play the catch-up game in terms of growth. You also profit more from it than normally because you'll likely have a size 4 or 5 capital that has something like 6 or more production.
Choosing liberty after National College can be very powerful in some circumstances. In my last game (Emperor) I found myself as the only civ on a medium sized continent. After beelining the NC I used liberty to pump out settlers every 4 turns and had soon covered the whole continent. Meanwile a popup told me that I was joint first in the number of techs researched. Normally I consider Liberty to be a waste of a policy but here it saved me around 25 turns building in the capital. From then on it was plain sailing (excuse the pun!)
Yes, I agree that Liberty could be quite interesting if you go NC first to play the catch-up game in terms of growth. You also profit more from it than normally because you'll likely have a size 4 or 5 capital that has something like 6 or more production.
This used to be my preferred method, but lately I'm taking a somewhat different route. I haven't been buying the library. Instead, I grab Tradition while NC-rushing, and buy all my settlers (which I manage to buy 2-3 depending on availability of luxury selling). That way the moment the NC finishes, I can expand rapidly, and not have a single moment of downtime for growth in my capital. I find it's the best way to go since population in my Library+NC capital is so crucial for science.
(Obviously this doesn't work if other civs are too close)
So I decided to try to original Save that Civilized Post. I didn't get the +39 BPT that he got on one of his attempts mine was +35 BPT I am Allied with Singapore, Friends with Copenhagen.
Problems I noticed with the map I had to ignore Luxury improvement to improve other tiles so Paris could continue growing.
As Far as city placement 3 of our cities match the 4 Lyon I think I dropped right on a luxury and bought the iron away from Singapore.
Tradition food isn't used for settler production and food isn't used for calculating liberty extra production but yeah, that also came to my mind. With the capital large and likely having a lot of production, Liberty is probably better for an NC first start.
When following a 2- or 3-city NC start, I often start with Liberty, then Tradition and Oligarchy. With a 1-city NC start, I take Tradition, then Liberty or Oligarchy, depending on the culture output.
I generally build the NC at one city, but not absolutely first -- I'll detour by one or perhaps two techs before Writing to get luxuries developed and sold. Turn 40 is about typical for the NC (normal speed), depending on huts. Immediately after, I REX out to 3-5 cities to claim (and sell) more resources, buying workers/settlers to turbocharge the REX, then CS's. One of the advantages of an early NC is that I can get to the medieval era via Metal Casting in time for my third SP -- while they're still cheap. I can work through the left side of Patronage fairly quickly with cultural CS's, getting to Scholasticism for another huge research boost.
What are the policies you're mixing in to get the NC timeline?
going tradition gives you a bigger city, so the +50% goes further. Going Liberty lets you kick out more settlers and has your workers improving resources faster (+farms for growth)
using the GL sling can let you get into medieval faster, and if you delay the monument, lets you spend more social policies in Patronage for the CSs.
Setting up a GS generator before the NC will bring you mid-late game advantages. You can always go back and spam out cities or do the NC after that.
Are you going to take down close civs? what victory conditions are you planning? All of these things factor into whether or not the NC needs to be built post 1- 2- or 3+ city timeline.
One test won't show enough to prove anything out, since everything is situational.
With respect to Darius, honour + Heroic Epic/timed GA is a solid pre-NC strategy.
While I am a new player and still getting to know the game on Prince level, this has been an interesting read for me. This is in no way an objection to having a post that reviews different build objectives, but I believe the finial conclusion of the original question is “It is highly situational to your starting position” That being said we can start to take a look at which position is ideal or poor for different strats.
I think the questions we need to ask ourselves to determine what our first tech and production we use is entirely based on the terrain in which we find ourselves. “Where will my first, second, and third pop going to work? When will I need to change a 2,0,1 onto a 1,1,1 b4 my worker gets built?” “Is the area open enough to warrant researching AniHus first to see if there are any 2,2,x horses within the second ring?” “Does this coincide with herding cows and or trapping deer for my overall growth and production curves?” “Do I have any tundra, snow, or sea tiles to influence if I want a second military unit out exploring/” “Is the area hilly or thick, to warrant a scout instead of a warrior?” “How do those extra production turns impact my build order?”
Granted I don’t have the answers yet myself, but from these types of questions I think we can start to narrow in on “What do you need to make a one city NC a solid choice?”
On higher levels (with what I assume have lower Happiness), does selling a unique resource always worth the loss of 150 Happiness? Is selecting Freedom and organizing your pop for stagnate growth ever better than buying a settler and saving one policy markup for the rest of the game?
Thanks in advance, looking forward to more discussion.
-Joel
On higher levels (with what I assume have lower Happiness), does selling a unique resource always worth the loss of 150 Happiness? Is selecting Freedom and organizing your pop for stagnate growth ever better than buying a settler and saving one policy markup for the rest of the game?
1st question : With NC first(Edit: And/or when you simply delay your first expansion for an early wonder), your happiness bucket will grow too fast. You don't want to get a golden age with few population and few improved tiles because it's almost a pure waste. When you sell ressources, you get gold for critical things like settlers and workers, improving grantly your expansion. So it's a good synergy between these 2 facts.
In multiplayer, if going NC first(Edit: Or delay expansion), i suggest to delay the most possible working happiness ressources. It's the only way to control the bucket.
2nd question : Highly debatable. Settlers are expensive. Workers are more cheap. Hard to tell which one is better. But i think if you want a large number of cities Freedom is a good idea because if you go Tradition and jump in unhappiness very often you will not gain much of it and capital doesn't grow either. Tradition may be better with few core cities and settlers buying. Freedom for more of them with workers buying.
In multiplayer, if no CS at all, Freedom is king because the only way to get workers is to build them by yourself or buying them with the gold you self generated. Capital is the perfect city to alternate settlers and workers. Freedom gives you an interesting overflow which can be transfered in your workers.
But Tradition is good either, just don't stay with few cities or a bigger civ will eventually whipe you in the ADs with a dozen of strong units.
With NC first(Edit: And/or when you simply delay your first expansion for an early wonder), your happiness bucket will grow too fast. You don't want to get a golden age with few population and few improved tiles because it's almost a pure waste.
I disagree with this statement. I think the early GA is advantageous IF you've prepared for it. In the early game, getting an advantage, particularly on the higher levels, is more difficult. A GA can help you. If you've improved some of your tiles, and you've grown your population via the tradition branch, you should have 5-6 population (or better) when you hit that GA. You should be able to complete a build or builds and collect gold a litter faster. Production is relative to the era you are in. The deeper you go into your research, the more expensive in terms of hammers your builds become. Early in the game, those extra hammers are quite useful for the price of the builds. I welcome the GA.
I disagree with this statement. I think the early GA is advantageous IF you've prepared for it. In the early game, getting an advantage, particularly on the higher levels, is more difficult. A GA can help you. If you've improved some of your tiles, and you've grown your population via the tradition branch, you should have 5-6 population (or better) when you hit that GA. You should be able to complete a build or builds and collect gold a litter faster. Production is relative to the era you are in. The deeper you go into your research, the more expensive in terms of hammers your builds become. Early in the game, those extra hammers are quite useful for the price of the builds. I welcome the GA.
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is greatly reduced. 
Sometimes its just too tempting to settle a lot of great city sites early.
