Naval Units Rework Project

[JosEPh_II]

While this is all interesting perhaps we should focus on the projects already started? This is getting to be rather scattershot modding isn't it? And That's what got the mod into trouble before. "Just sayin'" as SO says.

 

[Thunderbrd]

While this is all interesting perhaps we should focus on the projects already started? This is getting to be rather scattershot modding isn't it? And That's what got the mod into trouble before. "Just sayin'" as SO says.

I know who you're listening to there and I'm a little peeved by that comment (not yours) because it really amounted to a lot of negativity where I feel much more optimistic about what we can eventually get this mod to handle. There is a lot of room left when you consider how much can still be cleaned up and made more efficient. And as I've always said, those who are going to worry too much about speed are never going to appreciate the depth here that many players will.

The reason this comes up is because my wife is looking at some resources issues and when you start considering reviewing a whole picture, there usually becomes some streamlining but also some solutions for certain spots. I don't want to completely spill the beans on what she wants to do in case she loses her motivation here but as with any project concept, one can of worms leads to another leads to another and she's found her rabbit hole leads back to a lot of the same things that need addressing elsewhere that many of us are well aware of already.

But again, when working on improving things, building INTO them is exactly how you make the mod feel like it's still growing when it's actually getting better, faster and more stable. In the big picture, this sort of modification is pretty small peas, but would play out pretty cool imo.

 

[Hydromancerx]

So if i recall correctly the naval ships went like ...

Modern Now -> Unmanned -> Automated -> Shockwave -> Droid Navy -> Levitation -> Troid Ships -> Gravity Drive

With the addition of the new Space mod I think we can expand it to spaceships.

According to your Naval sheet. The Gravity Drive units cross a lot of diffrent techs. But the Space Mod spreads those out even more. So we might need to limit the Gravity Drive ones to one part and then have the other later or even earlier.

Propulsion wise there is ...

Interstellar Travel (x120) ->VASIMR Propulsion (x122) -> ACNP Propulsion (x127) -> Wormhole Traversal (x131) -> Folding Space (x132) -> Space Creasing (x133) -> Intergroup Travel (x136) -> Transverse Euclidean Geometry (x139) -> Intercluster Travel (x140) -> Endless Exploration (x145) -> Multiverse Traversal (x148) -> Alternate History Exploration (x150) -> Dimensional Transcendence (x152)

So yeah it gets insane. So some are specific propulsion like VASIMR Propulsion, ACNP Propulsion and Wormhole Traversal . While others are based on how far like Interstellar Travel , Intergroup Travel, Intercluster Travel and Multiverse Traversal.

I also think there are some techs we could add later to those eras which could better define unit milestones. While still fitting within the existing techs.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Modern Now -> Unmanned -> Automated -> Shockwave -> Droid Navy -> Levitation -> Troid Ships -> Gravity Drive

I think that's accurate.

With the addition of the new Space mod I think we can expand it to spaceships.

At first, I figure deep space craft would be made for a lot more speed and perhaps not so much on the monolithic size you see with the Levitation+ ships but they may blend eventually. The ships up through Gravity Drive aren't really intended for deep space travel and so the Inter-Solar System traveling ships would begin a new line of evaluation. And perhaps at some point, some of these 'naval' ships would upgrade into some of them but for a generation or two they would be different lines entirely.

According to your Naval sheet. The Gravity Drive units cross a lot of diffrent techs. But the Space Mod spreads those out even more. So we might need to limit the Gravity Drive ones to one part and then have the other later or even earlier.

I figured that would be the case and the last few would need some further reviewing and design. Pretty sure we'll need another Troid layer too.

Interstellar Travel (x120) ->VASIMR Propulsion (x122) -> ACNP Propulsion (x127) -> Wormhole Traversal (x131) -> Folding Space (x132) -> Space Creasing (x133) -> Intergroup Travel (x136) -> Transverse Euclidean Geometry (x139) -> Intercluster Travel (x140) -> Endless Exploration (x145) -> Multiverse Traversal (x148) -> Alternate History Exploration (x150) -> Dimensional Transcendence (x152)

So where does Gravity Manipulation come in. Most of these are Deep Space travel engines and mechanisms, and that's where these Naval units were intended to NOT be trying to allocate all that energy towards deep space travel but rather towards weapon systems and dominance of the solar systems they are given to wage war within, protect, and command. Because these long range forms of travel require engine systems that soak up a tremendous amount of the energy systems of these long range ships, for a long time the design intentions differ between short range and long range travel needs. Big interstellar ships are also not intended for operation within an atmosphere for a long time, again because the propulsion systems (and sometimes even larger size than these System combatants) are not the kind of thing you want the physics of taking place anywhere within the atmosphere of a planet. But these naval ships are intended to be completely capable of travel to the deepest portion of any oceans and the most hostile environments of completely uninhabitable planetary surfaces.

I suppose at the point that we are creating wormholes and such, that's when we start getting the big combat 'naval' ships through to other solar systems. But it's not like they go about travelling there at light speed (though they may be able to go quite fast... just not that kind of FTL speed fast.)

So yeah it gets insane. So some are specific propulsion like VASIMR Propulsion, ACNP Propulsion and Wormhole Traversal . While others are based on how far like Interstellar Travel , Intergroup Travel, Intercluster Travel and Multiverse Traversal.

I would imagine that it's nearly impossible to fold space or create portals to a location you haven't been able to reach by means of a very fast mode of transportation to get to the destination and help set up an arrival port, for a long time anyhow.

I also think there are some techs we could add later to those eras which could better define unit milestones. While still fitting within the existing techs.

I'm sure there is.

All in all, I'm in no race to try to fill these regions of the tech tree because you can't even PLAY these regions without some serious debugging work and project completions to come. I feel we're at least a couple of good years out from this even being meaningful to put much design effort into but discussions on what we want can help to guide our current projects.

 

[Hydromancerx]

1. I was thinking at some point we will want a "space navy" similar to say battlestar galactica stuff or Star Wars Battlecruisers. Basically the same kinda stuff that was in the Final Frontier mod.

2. Gravity Ships come in the same column as ACNP Propulsion.

3. Yeah but still its good to keep planning for that stuff even if its nearly impossible to get to currently.

 

[pepper2000]

Sorry for moving things around so much, which I know is destabilizing some of this planning. I really do think I am done with major tech tree renovations now. The main reason I moved Gravity Control later is that I have a personal connection with the Icarus Interstellar project and want at least the first generation of interstellar travel to be based on the fusion propulsion concept, and in particular to postpone concepts based on speculative physics until after interstellar colonization is under way.

When I think of spaceships, there is a distinction in my mind between those that can travel in an atmosphere and those that can't. The first generation of starships cannot enter atmospheres because they are too big and fragile, so they must be assembled in deep space. When they reach a destination star system, they can deploy shuttles that take colonists to a planetary surface. It wouldn't be until much later that individual vessels are capable of both functions. So it's an open question in my mind just how many different lines of vessels we should have and where those lines diverge and converge.

Looking forward to seeing these units come to fruition.

 

[Shoobs]

Is there a time when settler time units can't load onto sea transports?

 

[Thunderbrd]

1. I was thinking at some point we will want a "space navy" similar to say battlestar galactica stuff or Star Wars Battlecruisers. Basically the same kinda stuff that was in the Final Frontier mod.

2. Gravity Ships come in the same column as ACNP Propulsion.

3. Yeah but still its good to keep planning for that stuff even if its nearly impossible to get to currently.

Sorry for moving things around so much, which I know is destabilizing some of this planning. I really do think I am done with major tech tree renovations now. The main reason I moved Gravity Control later is that I have a personal connection with the Icarus Interstellar project and want at least the first generation of interstellar travel to be based on the fusion propulsion concept, and in particular to postpone concepts based on speculative physics until after interstellar colonization is under way.

When I think of spaceships, there is a distinction in my mind between those that can travel in an atmosphere and those that can't. The first generation of starships cannot enter atmospheres because they are too big and fragile, so they must be assembled in deep space. When they reach a destination star system, they can deploy shuttles that take colonists to a planetary surface. It wouldn't be until much later that individual vessels are capable of both functions. So it's an open question in my mind just how many different lines of vessels we should have and where those lines diverge and converge.

Looking forward to seeing these units come to fruition.

It'll take some re-evaluating and you've probably given a lot more room for additional stages. So that's fine. The Gravity Ships aren't really meant to be Interstellar traveling ships. Barely even interplanetary since their engine systems are about manipulating the fields of gravity around them so that they plummet into the direction they wish to travel. This can get quite fast so can work great within a solar system but is not the kind of thrust you'd need to make long distance, beyond the solar system travel all that feasible. The can move at pretty much at a maximum beneficial tactical speed but you have to move even faster than that to make system to system travel relevant. The main thing with them would be that they can use their engine as a horrifically powerful weapon as well.

These can travel in the atmosphere and underwater but I imagine the same distinction for longer distance traveling ships... And you'd have those kinds of distant traveling starships for quite a while before full gravity field manipulation control becomes a reality so there's a lot of parallel ship group types here. In a sense, these can be almost considered 'land' units on a solar system basis, while the longer distance 'navies' that ply the deep space ocean would be a whole new class of units, ones that really aren't as combat worthy as these shorter range ships.

But then, the Gravity Ships are just really advanced Levitation ships basically, and that's where this kind of underwater, atmospheric, inter-planetary but non-inter solar-system ship categories really begins.

 

[Faustmouse]

From a realistic point of view, many of the theorized newer propulsion systems won't work in the atmosphere. That's ONE big hurdle to overcome if you want ships to upgrade into space ships. IMO, the only reason that justifies such an upgrade is the "ship" part of a space ship. They have to deal with completely different situations; thinks like waves, storms, shallows, currents etc don't exist in space. On the other hand, ships can be open, don't require life support, have a medium to push against (water) for propulsion and have to deal with threats that are FAR slower (yes, including hypersonic rockets).

Space ships are also not very capable of great depths. That's because in space, you have a pressure difference of less than 1 bar (inside to outside pressure). If you go diving, you reach this difference in 10m depth (around 33 feet). This increases at 1 bar per 10m, so by the point you reach 1000m, you have already over 100 bars to deal with. You wouldn't build spaceships to withstand these pressure levels, because it would add more mass. And mass is something you want to keep as low as possible in space. Not only during launch, but also after. Because to lighter you are, the faster you can go with the same amount of fuel.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I like the idea of space only space ships eventually converging with naval ships. I agree with that logic.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Space ships are also not very capable of great depths. That's because in space, you have a pressure difference of less than 1 bar (inside to outside pressure). If you go diving, you reach this difference in 10m depth (around 33 feet). This increases at 1 bar per 10m, so by the point you reach 1000m, you have already over 100 bars to deal with. You wouldn't build spaceships to withstand these pressure levels, because it would add more mass. And mass is something you want to keep as low as possible in space. Not only during launch, but also after. Because to lighter you are, the faster you can go with the same amount of fuel.

This whole scenario is only true for the early stages of space flight. Where we are still using solid or liquid fuel. Once we go past the usage of these type feuls this scenario is no longer relevant.

 

[Faustmouse]

Basically all propulsion systems we can imagine right now require you to have some sort of finite resource as propellant. Exceptions, like solar sails are still impractible for high masses. I'm not saying that we won't develope a propulsion system at some stage that allows for heavier ships, BUT: How practical is it that your ship is capable of reaching great depths?

 

[Thunderbrd]

From a realistic point of view, many of the theorized newer propulsion systems won't work in the atmosphere. That's ONE big hurdle to overcome if you want ships to upgrade into space ships. IMO, the only reason that justifies such an upgrade is the "ship" part of a space ship. They have to deal with completely different situations; thinks like waves, storms, shallows, currents etc don't exist in space. On the other hand, ships can be open, don't require life support, have a medium to push against (water) for propulsion and have to deal with threats that are FAR slower (yes, including hypersonic rockets).

Space ships are also not very capable of great depths. That's because in space, you have a pressure difference of less than 1 bar (inside to outside pressure). If you go diving, you reach this difference in 10m depth (around 33 feet). This increases at 1 bar per 10m, so by the point you reach 1000m, you have already over 100 bars to deal with. You wouldn't build spaceships to withstand these pressure levels, because it would add more mass. And mass is something you want to keep as low as possible in space. Not only during launch, but also after. Because to lighter you are, the faster you can go with the same amount of fuel.

All reasons that long range inter solar system ships would not be designed as submersible levitation navies that would be capable of interplanetary but not inter solar system travel. These navy vessels would be extreme examples of absolute pressure immunity at both ends of the spectrum but are using internal energy propulsion systems that rely on field manipulations rather than on thrust. Thrust that can get a ship to hyperspeed would actually deny some uses of such energy field systems that also provide force fields that the ships utilize to become so invulnerable to pressures and rigors of both undersea and outer space travel. Thus, the intersystem ships would be far weaker in any combat scenario, unless large enough (like a ginormous mother-ship type) that can have the engineering to include both kinds of propulsion systems and can switch to field manipulation systems from hyperspeed thrust systems when needed. Such ships are probably not only a bit more advanced at first, but would also be impractical for most battle scenarios as anything more than a Mega Carrier for more specialized vessels.

Your statements are largely true in a pre-energy field thrust scenario. As you put it, 'many of the currently theorized newer propulsion systems'. These do not yet see the potential for energy field manipulation propulsion. Such systems are considered and theoretical but we admit that our current understanding of electromagnetic and gravity fields is right now nowhere near where it's going to need to be for these to become a reality, so as far as I know, no current efforts to actually develop these are on any modern horizon. And our tech tree doesn't suggest it will be until machines have become sentient and begin to unlock these kinds of hyper complex formulas.

 

[tmv]

How practical is it that your ship is capable of reaching great depths?

A use case would be an ocean planet with toxic atmosphere. Your spaceship could simply dive straight into the ocean and operate there.

 

[Thunderbrd]

BUT: How practical is it that your ship is capable of reaching great depths?

With a force field being primarily what makes a craft space-worthy, and with the same field making the craft equally under-sea worthy, what would make it practical to NOT design such craft to be applicable to both uses?