Need some input about legion size

[stmartin]

We need some input about legion size.

There's a glitch: the legion size seems to be too small, usually 1-3 units. Players don't experience too much of awesome legion feeling.

Some potential solutions:

1. Make legions able to contain multiple unit combat type. For example, a hero with melee level 2, mounted level 1, archer level 2 can form a legion with a maximum of 2 melee units, 1 mounted unit, and 2 archers. However, this might lead to bloated legions.
2. Make a new promotion, enable hero to include 1 more unit to his legion, any unit combat type. This promotion may have a promotion line.
3. Make each combat level able to select more unit, for example, D:2, C:4, B:6, A:7, S:8.
4. Don't enlarge legion size. The current size is just right.

Because this is something about player experience, I want to hear from players which one they prefer, or whether they have a differnet idea.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I would like to combine different unit types. Rarely have archers, cavalry and infantry worked separately in real life, even though Civ makes us think so. In fact, there should be synergy between them. If you're worried about bloated legions, just change it so that legions have to stay together (that would discourage people from combine everything under one commander).

 

[Kenjister]

Hmm, I'm torn on this one. Currently the balance is about right: not all your troops will be lead by a hero (which is good) so it preserves the uniqueness about the whole thing. On the other hand, it would be nice to see a combined arms approach in legions.

In the end though, I'd say keep the size as it is right now. If you're still going to add ~40 in the next release, there should be more than enough heroes to go around. Legions should be special, and they represent the best troops your faction has to offer. Currently, I belive the lack of killing everything with every unit (because they're all legion members) is balanced by the amazing feel you get when your legion arrives to break a siege or to change the tide of a campaign. I personally love how they can't be everywhere at once, forcing you to actually make hard decisions about where to send them. Anthing more, and the invinciblity feeling sets in... and then the game loses excitement.

Though it's probably hard to code, the promotion line that allows a larger legion size could work. That way only a few select heroes could get it as opposed to everybody.

 

[stmartin]

First we are not going to add 40 new heroes in the next release. We realize that's too many in every sense. There will be about 15 new heroes. The problem is not there are not enough heroes, but rather many heroes don't get a chance to fight and level up. Also the key is to maintain the uniqueness of as many heroes as possible.

@AP

That 'legion members should stay close' idea is good, I think even we don't make legion a combined arm, we could still implement this idea. A legion member ten plots away from its hero doesn't make much sense.

@Kenjister

If I understand right, one of the fun part of legion system is the feeling player get when their elite legion units comes in the middle of a close fight and change the outcome. That's great.

Still, I've heard player say more than once they want larger legions, the reason is to get the feeling of 'legion'. That's understandable too. In fact, war at that time should be legion vs. legion, hero vs. hero, that would feel more right.

I'm rather confused as to what is the best way to enhance player experience right now.

 

[Kenjister]

yeah, I figured 40 would be a little much... at least until you implement advisors

I too would support forcing legion members to stay together, after all, they are under the command of the hero who's leading them. Something that just hit me though is that perhaps the lack of legion vs. legion feeling will be solved by the heroes added in the next release. After all, ~15 heroes is still alot, and that should probably put most units in your army under the command of someone.

Another idea that just hit me, though probably very hard to code, is somehow having a tech grant increased legion capacity. Call it 'Military Reform' or something... that would be pretty awesome. It'd solve the lack of late-game legion vs. legion combat, while keeping the ratio of legion to fodder balaced in the early game.

 

[stmartin]

Yes, perhaps we should wait to see what these around 15 new heroes do to this matter.

So I would do that same legion unit stay together stuff. Just make legion member automatically quit legion if he leaves his hero about 2 or 3 plots away.

Right now my inclination is to make combined arm legion, as well as tech constraint to total legion size, say 5 in the beginning of the game, 8 or so in the late stage. So you could make legion with various unit combat types, but can't exceed the total legion size even if your total combat levels are higher. Maybe in the future there are some bureaucracy stuff and ranks coming in we can substitute the tech constraint with rank constraint. That's for later. Right now I'd better make some new promotions for those new heroes...

 

[Kenjister]

Oooh, new promotions...

The combined arms approach + a max legion size sounds great too.

 

[the1sean]

Legions seem just right to me, thats my input.

 

[stmartin]

Legions seem just right to me, thats my input.

That's a right-to-the-point input.

What do you think of the combined arm + tech max size limit idea?

 

[the1sean]

That's a right-to-the-point input.

What do you think of the combined arm + tech max size limit idea?

I think that sounds like a good idea, because the legions seem balanced in the early game especially. Maybe in the mid game unlock combined arms with a low unit cap like 5, and then increase that base number through techs, up to about 8 sounds like a good starting point. It will definitely need play testing

 

[stmartin]

Yeah, that's a good point there, about giving combined army legion ability to a tech instead of giving it for free on game start.

 

[Kenjister]

Man, this forum is really starting to churn out some good ideas now that we have several people posting regulary!

I'm guessing the combined arms approach will probably come out in 2.5 (or whatever the version after 2.4 is called) so it might be a good idea to edit the tech tree in that version too, so we can attach these special abilities to an appropriate sounding tech. Right now I can't really think of any techs that could take a combined arms upgrade except Professional Army, and that's already a really powerful tech anyways.

 

[ORION11380]

1. Make legions able to contain multiple unit combat type. For example, a hero with melee level 2, mounted level 1, archer level 2 can form a legion with a maximum of 2 melee units, 1 mounted unit, and 2 archers. However, this might lead to bloated legions. .

I was thinking the same thing when I first started playing, and thought it'd be awsome to have Guan Yu lead a legion of axemen with archers in support and mounted scouts. But then it wouldn't be a "legion." It'd be more like a "Division" or "Corps"

The more I played, the more I think of the existing system as being more true to reality. The general is the heart of the legion, and the special abilities of the core unit is HIM being HIM more than anything else. Zhang Liao's Dread affect isn't because of all the nameless peons following him, it's his reputation itself. And when GuanYu is on his RedHare, slashing through the enemy with his glaive, it should only be the immediate troops around him that benefits from his prowess, i.e. the melee troops. An archery unit isn't going to benefit from the enemy cowering from his onslaught, it's the axemen pressing with his momentum.

When I use a hero's core troops, I visualize that hero at the front of the attack, taking on the opposing champion in the 1 on 1 dual that was so previlent back in the days. And the bonus effects on his other legion members is due to them being emboldened by the Hero's deeds.

 

[Kenjister]

I was thinking the same thing when I first started playing, and thought it'd be awsome to have Guan Yu lead a legion of axemen with archers in support and mounted scouts. But then it wouldn't be a "legion." It'd be more like a "Division" or "Corps"

The more I played, the more I think of the existing system as being more true to reality. The general is the heart of the legion, and the special abilities of the core unit is HIM being HIM more than anything else. Zhang Liao's Dread affect isn't because of all the nameless peons following him, it's his reputation itself. And when GuanYu is on his RedHare, slashing through the enemy with his glaive, it should only be the immediate troops around him that benefits from his prowess, i.e. the melee troops. An archery unit isn't going to benefit from the enemy cowering from his onslaught, it's the axemen pressing with his momentum.

When I use a hero's core troops, I visualize that hero at the front of the attack, taking on the opposing champion in the 1 on 1 dual that was so previlent back in the days. And the bonus effects on his other legion members is due to them being emboldened by the Hero's deeds.

I agree with this completely, however, I mainly interpret this as a strong argument to keep legion size down to a reasonable level. There is a limit to how much a single person can command. As to the issue with combined arms, why can't cavalry charge along with Guan Yu while the footmen follow? As long as size is kept down I think combined arms is a great idea.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

There is a limit to how much a single person can command.

Actually Cao Cao would beg to differ.

What about diffusion of experience? E.g. Guan Yu would works best with 4 units, but if he has to command 8 units, only a third of his experience/attributes get passed on. We can even make it semi-logarithmic, e.g.
1-4 units = full experience
5-8 units= 50% experience
8-12 units = 25% experience
>12 units=10% experience

In most cases that would mean that unless you have a superpromoted general with more than 10 promotions, if you want to use 12 units with that legion, all they would get is 1 promotion. This would be more useful in late game when large numbers matter.

 

[Kenjister]

Well, most of them did end up getting burnt on ships or slaughtered in marshes

It does sound interesting though, but maybe really hard to code and somewhat random.
What about giving the Legion members a negative strength promotion based on how many units above ideal are commanded.
1-4 could be no penalty
5-8 could grant about -30% strength. (enough to counteract Elite ____ promotions but not other special ones)
8-12 could give -50 or -60% strength. (enough to wipe off most benefits except vigourous and the unit's promotions. Useful only if you need alot of mediocre units with effectively only the Vigorous promotions. ei opening invasion against Yuan Shao. Man I hate that guy, he just grows and grows and grows...)

 

[the1sean]

great discussion

 

[ORION11380]

Well, most of them did end up getting burnt on ships or slaughtered in marshes

It does sound interesting though, but maybe really hard to code and somewhat random.
What about giving the Legion members a negative strength promotion based on how many units above ideal are commanded.
1-4 could be no penalty
5-8 could grant about -30% strength. (enough to counteract Elite ____ promotions but not other special ones)
8-12 could give -50 or -60% strength. (enough to wipe off most benefits except vigourous and the unit's promotions. Useful only if you need alot of mediocre units with effectively only the Vigorous promotions. ei opening invasion against Yuan Shao. Man I hate that guy, he just grows and grows and grows...)

Lol re: getting burnt on ships

There's an algorithm in the Defense mod where for each unit on a tile after the first, they get a 10% penalty on strength for the entire stack...maybe that could be modified for the legion?

 

[Aeon221]

Small legions give things a more personal feel.

I would like to make a few suggestions about going for combined arms groups. Since they allow a more balanced force profile, and thus are less restricted in the units you can add, they should definitely be less competent -- a horseman in a cavalry specialized legion should be straight up more effective than one in a combined arms legion, as his commander has more specific information related to using him effectively. To balance that strength differential, I'd suggest allowing combined arms legions to achieve a larger effective size than a specialized force, with perhaps a maximum of between six and eight units.

It'd give the player the option of choosing between small numbers of elite specialists, or larger numbers of more generally proficient units.

 

[Skitters]

Small legions give things a more personal feel.

I would like to make a few suggestions about going for combined arms groups. Since they allow a more balanced force profile, and thus are less restricted in the units you can add, they should definitely be less competent -- a horseman in a cavalry specialized legion should be straight up more effective than one in a combined arms legion, as his commander has more specific information related to using him effectively. To balance that strength differential, I'd suggest allowing combined arms legions to achieve a larger effective size than a specialized force, with perhaps a maximum of between six and eight units.

It'd give the player the option of choosing between small numbers of elite specialists, or larger numbers of more generally proficient units.

To some extent wouldn't that already be case? - as presumably some legion promotions simply won't be of benefit to every unit in the legion or wouldn't suit certain units as much as others (ie; a city raid bonus would be better suited to a swordsman than an archer).