Need some input about legion size

Also it may be worth you looking at the Fall Further (FFH modmod) version of Heroes (called Great Commanders) which run on similar lines but have a distance modifier that means that if a unit is x tiles away from the commander, he doesn't get XP benefit for any combat they are involved in.

There are then promotions that extend the effective range that the benefit will be gained.
 
This is great discussion. A pity I'm pretty tired with the release and need some rest to figure this out properly. :D So here's my two cents, not conclusions, just rant when I'm not quite clear in the head:

Yeah, small legion has some psychological benefit too, I didn't know this well. There's a thing though, isn't the core troop promotions there to represent the prowess of Guan Yu himself, and the whole legion promotions there to represent his commanding ability? So, if core troop promotions and legion promotions are done properly, we should have the benefit of both world, in one hand is the hero's god-like warrior might, on the other hand is the hero as a commander in chief. After all, Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang are heroes too, they won't fight and charge, so they don't get some of the core promotions, but they get good legion promotions to portray them as great commanders.

There's still another potential conflict I'd like to point out: right now the unit combat level decides both the power of your legion and the size of your legion. It works fine if we understand the power benefit of combat level promotions as coming from the hero's commanding ability. It works not so fine if we think of it as the hero's own warrior might. It seems players more likely to think as latter.

About giving player choice whether to form pure combat type legion or combined legion, I love this idea. How could we achieve it? If pure combat type, your unit combat promotions are the one according to your hero's unit combat level. If 2 combat types, then each combat type suffers -1 penalty as to combat level promotions. If 3, suffers -2. This is a way to exchange legion size with unit prowess.

The commander range: there's already commander range in now, 2 plots, more than that your legion member automatically quit. A promotion to extend that size sounds cool to me. May be a little underpowered though.

I would try making some prototype with these ideas and post as beta release after I finish the much needed patch A.
 
hmm, I've always though of the elite bonus as the commanding ability with perhaps a large morale boost from the hero mixed in... Vigorous seems to be an extension of the heroes personal fighting ability though, perhaps that's what other players are going off of. (Most of the Tiger Generals + Cao Cao's bodyguards seem to support the fighting ability part.)
 
Please don't tell me I convinced you to do that... :sad:
Vigorous is great for the entire legion, it's what makes them run, and be better than the other troops. It's actually one of the greatest incentives to make a legion. Currently everything is just balanced great! If you want to change the confusion over commanding vs. physical presence, just change the name of vigorous to reflect that it's a command promotion. If you do that you also have justification for giving Cao Cao up to Vigorous IV, along with other strategists. Just don't give them great core troop promotions or anything. You would have to nerf Xu Chu and Dian Wei though.
 
Yeah. Some guys speaking Chinese are fully supportive to make vigorous Core Troop promotion. They also happen to be the guys who want legion to be bigger.
 
well, it seems kinda contradictory though... they want bigger legions so more units get the benefits and therefore more fun, but they also want vigorous to be only a core troop promotion? it just seems odd, since vigorous is what really changes the combat odds (in the field at least), not the little elite troops bonus or some other promotion.

Do they still want to have bigger legions even after all the new random and historical heroes? In my games, my whole attacking army is under some hero's command, and I'm playing as Ma Teng. Cao Cao probably would have no problem getting most of his troops in a legion, even in the late game.
 
The reason is vigorous is just too useful, they imbalance the game, especially if legion size is increased. I have yet release 2.4 in China, because I have to convert it to BTS 3.17.
 
If you do decide to change Vigorous into a core troop promotion, could you think about buffing up the elite ____ promotions slightly? Right now the legions don't seem too unbalanced to me, especially since the AI is fielding thier own much more effectively.
 
Ah, good :cool:
I was pretty scared for a bit there. If you do find things about Legions that seem overpowered, do you thing you could borrow from the FfH policy of "if everything is overpowered, nothing is?"

I've also noticed that all my combat is done with legions now, unless it's an emergency or a suprise attack. I have more than enough random heroes to go around now :goodjob:

EDIT: Is Cao Cao supposed to be getting combined arms legions? In my current game the Hero Info screen shows he has a repeating ballista and a Crossbowman in his legion.
 
Ah, good :cool:
I was pretty scared for a bit there. If you do find things about Legions that seem overpowered, do you thing you could borrow from the FfH policy of "if everything is overpowered, nothing is?"

I've also noticed that all my combat is done with legions now, unless it's an emergency or a suprise attack. I have more than enough random heroes to go around now :goodjob:

EDIT: Is Cao Cao supposed to be getting combined arms legions? In my current game the Hero Info screen shows he has a repeating ballista and a Crossbowman in his legion.

That's interesting motto, useful too. Rest assured, if you think the current setting is good, it probably is. :)

The Cao Cao situation is a bug. Ahhh...
 
Maybe it's the same bug as the hero in a legion bug... the patch sould fix that then I guess.
 
Can you give it a little debugging? press shift_ctrl_L and change to Cao Cao, to take a look at Cao Cao's legion unit. If both units are concrete unit, I mean Cao Cao's legion units number equals that which is shown on info screen, then it's a new bug. If somehow one of the unit doesn't exist, it's the same bug.
 
Ok, I did the debugging, and the crossbow was really nonexistant.
On the other hand, since you're reading this Liu Bei has the Runner promotion as a legion promotion. This means as long as you have the legion together, it's invincible as it "flees" to the nearest other legion member upon defeat. In this case, the nearest legion member would be on the same tile, so the battle simply ends with the attacker retreating and the defender getting 1 xp. If the Legion is on a chokepoint, it cannot be moved nor destroyed in any way. Actually it's quite funny to watch though.
 
Da, I have discovered the cause of that mysterious bug, it's a careless coding error, when reading save game, every hero who has penetration promotion will get a phantom legion member.

Liu Bei is so awesome that everyone he touches became a runner,hehe. Well, that's a careless mistake on my part too. A patch B is on the way.
 
yeah, typing in 1 or 2 on the xml files can get quite repetetive when making heroes... I made a Deng Ai and Jiang Wei for 2.3, and it took forever to get the promotions working. While you're adding that though, it might be worth it to give a few more heroes the Elites (or Veterans, whatever it was called) promotion.
 
hehe, I actually expect you to ask for that. Any particular hero you feel like should get that elite promotion for XP bonus?
 
I guess I'm getting pradictable :lol:
Cheng Pu could certainly use the elite promotion (I don't think he has it currently), Cao Cao could do with it too... maybe some of the other well known generals that have relatively little defeats could deserve it to, like Xu Huang, or generals with long careers such as Liao Hua.
Right now my brain isn't working too well, I know I had a few more officers in mind. oh well.
 
I feel like declining giving too many heroes elite promotion, partly because right now heroes with elite promotions lead elite troops in history, Cao Ren with tiger and pather rider, Dian Wei with Cao Cao's body guards, Chen Dao with white ear warriors, etc. Second reason is since every hero need this promotion, I prepare to find a way for every hero to gain it. I just haven't figured a way yet.
 
Top Bottom