New Beta Version - March 6th (3/6)

[Wodhann]

I really don't like the musketman change because it now creates a weirdness of the first basic "gun unit" being ranged while the rest (riflemen, etc) being melee even though they should fill the same purpose.

I think the idea behind what Firaxis did is that ranged units were units that would only fight in long distances, and couldn't hold very well up close (like the gattling gun). And as Funak pointed out, musketmen have swords (and probably bayonets).

Removing volley gun because of the art is a poor reason in my opinion. Are you talking about the icon art? Because that can be changed. If you're talking about volley gun in general, including the model, I think it's personal opinion, some people may like it.

 

[Aristos]

Well, enjoy bringing down walls with muskets now, guys...

 

[JungleBucks]

I really don't like the musketman change because it now creates a weirdness of the first basic "gun unit" being ranged while the rest (riflemen, etc) being melee even though they should fill the same purpose.

I think the idea behind what Firaxis did is that ranged units were units that would only fight in long distances, and couldn't hold very well up close (like the gattling gun). And as Funak pointed out, musketmen have swords (and probably bayonets).

Removing volley gun because of the art is a poor reason in my opinion. Are you talking about the icon art? Because that can be changed. If you're talking about volley gun in general, including the model, I think it's personal opinion, some people may like it.

You and a few other posters serve a good point. I think a possible solution would be to bring back the volley-gun, and repurpose the musketman as a melee unit with a distinct advantage over the Tercio, (or for the sake of balance, maybe have the Tercio be a weaker variant of the musketman with the advantage against mounted units still in tact). Both would then upgrade into the fusilier.

With this, we keep our ranged unit, the UUs get to have their divide, we have something to deal with knights, and we could even get another military unit out of this. Everyone's happy.

 

[Gazebo]

Well, enjoy bringing down walls with muskets now, guys...

And somehow arrows and crossbow bolts are more realistic? Seriously, guys, come on.

I really don't like the musketman change because it now creates a weirdness of the first basic "gun unit" being ranged while the rest (riflemen, etc) being melee even though they should fill the same purpose.

It is only weird because it is new. Renaissance-era tactics for muskets were heavily integrated with pikes as a defensive shield. Muskets were not used in line formation drills on the continent until much later (in civ terms) than gunpowder is introduced as a military tech.

By the late-renaissance (really the early industrial age in civ 5 terms), that's when we get to the 'line up and shoot at each other' phase of military combat. For civ, this is represented by 'rifling,' which isn't 100% accurate (as line drills didn't rely on rifled guns until much later in the 19th century), but it works okay. This was the moment in which the melee pike fell to the wayside (and was later reintroduced with bayonets), thus guns become the 'melee' weapon of war. This is why rifling brings with it fusiliers, not 'riflemen' (as it used to be called), in the early industrial era. If we REALLY want to get pedantic about, I could change the tech name for Rifling to 'Line Drills' or thereabouts, to really hone in the tactical change at play at this point in the game.

In short, the pike and shot system now in use is far, far more accurate to how muskets were introduced and integrated into military combat. Far more so than the volley gun. I had problems with the volley gun on historical grounds - simply put, it was not prevalent enough as a weapon of war to deserve a spot as the ranged unit of the Renaissance. It just wasn't.

Now we have renaissance armies that use cannons, muskets, pike/musket integrated defensive lines, and cavalry tactics in-line with the dragoon model of combat (with some straggling knights, independent pikes, and crossbows lingering around for good measure).

G

 

[Gangrin]

A lot of changes, all interesting to test, but
"Battleship now final naval ranged unit"
NOOOOOOO!!! OH GOD PLEASE NO, NO, NO!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Oh well. Goodbye strong late-game fleet. It was a good run

 

[Gazebo]

A lot of changes, all interesting to test, but
"Battleship now final naval ranged unit"
NOOOOOOO!!! OH GOD PLEASE NO, NO, NO!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Oh well. Goodbye strong late-game fleet. It was a good run

Battleships are extremely strong. I'm not sure what the problem is.

G

 

[Wodhann]

Fine about the musketman thing, but what is this "basic tercio" gonna be called? Not tercio, right?

 

[darko82]

Battleships are extremely strong. I'm not sure what the problem is.

G

Nothing wrong, I guess. A matter of personal pereference as far as the late gameplay or tactic is concerned.

 

[Zarrk]

Mongol UA now extends from Chariot Archer to Helicopter Gunship (pew pew!)

Not true for the Cavalry.

Do you have any intention to do the same for the Huns and shouldn't coerced brutes have Brute Force ?

 

[Gazebo]

Not true for the Cavalry.

Do you have any intention to do the same for the Huns and shouldn't coerced brutes have Brute Force ?

I'll look at brutes. Re Huns, no, because mounted melee units end at Lancer. They become armor, which is a different combat class. If we want to go that route we can, but that's technically a different 'type' of unit.

G

 

[Myrrdin_Emrys]

I personally like the new changes about muskets and pikes !

Well about beliefs :
->god of all creation give bonus per city (not only for the capital, i believe it was already said)
->god of nature give intended naure + faith for natural wonder but no faith nor culture for moutain within 3 tiles of the city....

Edit : this post was destined for the hotfix not this version if you could delete it, i'll repost it under the right topic !

 

[Barbaro]

Please, help me. I want found a city! The unit painel is missing. I'm not use any mod, only the comunty pach (1-2-3-4-5-6a).

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I'll look at brutes. Re Huns, no, because mounted melee units end at Lancer. They become armor, which is a different combat class. If we want to go that route we can, but that's technically a different 'type' of unit.

G

Yeah we should go that route. Sounds like a fun idea.

 

[BenchBreaker]

Please, help me. I want found a city! The unit painel is missing. I'm not use any mod, only the comunty pach (1-2-3-4-5-6a).

Spoiler :

delete lua folders from (1) and (2)

 

[Gazebo]

I personally like the new changes about muskets and pikes !

Well about beliefs :
->god of all creation give bonus per city (not only for the capital, i believe it was already said)
->god of nature give intended naure + faith for natural wonder but no faith nor culture for moutain within 3 tiles of the city....

Edit : this post was destined for the hotfix not this version if you could delete it, i'll repost it under the right topic !

God of Nature - it gives you one faith and culture for every two, but the yield doesn't appear on the tiles themselves (just FYI).

G

 

[Funak]

Please, help me. I want found a city! The unit painel is missing. I'm not use any mod, only the comunty pach (1-2-3-4-5-6a).

Did you use the Automatic installer? If not, could you please try doing that, it usually solves most problems by itself.

Fine about the musketman thing, but what is this "basic tercio" gonna be called? Not tercio, right?

I don't see this as any more weird than dromons being available to everyone and called dromon.

 

[Llednar Twem]

Hooray, I have decently functioning internet again!

Policy requirement system for wonders now an AND system, not an OR system - a little easier to control, and rebalances science/culture dichotomy

Does this mean you need the relevant tech to make wonders again, rather than them being ulnlockable purely through culture? Please tell me I'm reading that wrong. That sounded like a fantastic way to break some of science's stranglehold over every aspect of the game, and I'll be extremely disappointed if I missed my chance to try it out.

 

[supracseduch]

Does this mean you need the relevant tech to make wonders again, rather than them being ulnlockable purely through culture? Please tell me I'm reading that wrong. That sounded like a fantastic way to break some of science's stranglehold over every aspect of the game, and I'll be extremely disappointed if I missed my chance to try it out.

You're not reading it wrong. You now need to meet both the tech requirement and the SP requirement before constructing them. The current AND system still works to prevent tech leaders from getting all the wonders. Although the OR system was potentially better since it made tech progression less important, it resulted in wonders being built a few turns apart from each other by the AI players, making it impossible for the human player to build them, even as Egypt with Goddess of Beauty pantheon. The ancient and Classical wonders were gone before you know it.

 

[pandasnail]

Hooray, I have decently functioning internet again!



Does this mean you need the relevant tech to make wonders again, rather than them being ulnlockable purely through culture? Please tell me I'm reading that wrong. That sounded like a fantastic way to break some of science's stranglehold over every aspect of the game, and I'll be extremely disappointed if I missed my chance to try it out.

It does, yeah. I didn't get a chance to try it out either, but the players who did basically all reported that it caused all wonders to fly off the board much quicker, you could no longer focus on a target wonder, they just all vanished.

 

[Llednar Twem]

Huh, even on lower difficulties? I could see that being an unintended consequence of the significant bonuses they get at higher difficulties, but it doesn't seem nearly as likely on an even playing field. If it's just the bonuses that are a problem could those maybe be adjusted instead? I wouldn't know as I generally play on the bottom few levels.

Edit: Reading the previous thread...some of the arguments against the system are basically tautologies. Several I've read so far basically boil down to complaining that the alternative to teching for wonders means you're no longer forced to tech for wonders. Why was this system completely gutted so easily?