New Beta Version - March 6th (3/6)

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Few bugs : cities have 2 attack range from start and indirect fire !
With the pantheon God of All creation i had absurd gain of culture and fiath per turn (around 13000 faith and 25 000 culture on turn 80 with epic speed !
(cache was cleared before installation)
 
Gazebo said:
All text files for CP and CBP are now organized into singular files, respectively. Assistance with the task of translation is requested!

Just when I've finished polish translation... for 1.1.23
Anyway, there are still strings, which need to be organized. Not included in en_US folders/files:
[sql files]
(1) Community Patch\Core Files\Core Changes\BarbCivFix.sql (1 hit)
(2) Community Balance Patch\Balance Changes\Difficulty\DifficultyMod.sql (8 hits)
(2) Community Balance Patch\Balance Changes\Units\UniqueUnits.sql (1 hit)
(2) Community Balance Patch\Modular Elements\Corporations\Corporations.sql (1 hit)
//omitting CSD
(6a) Community Balance Patch - Compatibility Files (EUI)\C4DFCompatibility\C4DFCompatibility.sql (1 hit)
[xml files] - intended?
(1) Community Patch\Core Files\Core Tables\CoreTableAdditions.xml (2 hits)
(1) Community Patch\Core Files\PNM Mods DB\API\Espionage.xml (2 hits)
(1) Community Patch\Core Files\PNM Mods DB\API\PlotYields.xml (2 hits) //reference attributes(?)
(1) Community Patch\Core Files\PNM Mods DB\API\Religion.xml (2 hits)
(1) Community Patch\Core Files\PNM Mods DB\API\UnifiedYieldsGoldenAge.xml (2 hits)
(1) Community Patch\Core Files\PNM Mods DB\API\UnifiedYieldsTourism.xml (2 hits)
(1) Community Patch\Core Files\PNM Mods DB\BUGFIX\SpyNames.xml (2 hits)
(1) Community Patch\Core Files\PNM Mods DB\BUGFIX\UnitclassNotUnit.xml
(1) Community Patch\Core Files\PNM Mods DB\PROMOTIONS\UnitNaming.xml (3 hits) //again - reference attribute(?)
(1) Community Patch\Core Files\PNM Mods DB\PROMOTIONS\VariableRecon.xml (2 hits)
(2) Community Balance Patch\Modular Elements\ArchaeologistUIMods\MiniMapPanelText.xml (2 hits)
(2) Community Balance Patch\Modular Elements\ArchaeologistUIMods\UIAntiquities.xml (2 hits)
(2) Community Balance Patch\Modular Elements\Corporations\Text\en_US\CorpText.xml (2 hits)
(2) Community Balance Patch\Modular Elements\TradeUIMod\GlobalCityStatesGifts.xml (2 hits)
(2) Community Balance Patch\Modular Elements\TradeUIMod\UITradeRoutesEnhancements.xml (2 hits)
//omitting CSD
//omitting C4D
//omitting MoreLuxuries
(6a) Community Balance Patch - Compatibility Files (EUI)\EUI\NeededText.xml (2 hits)
 
Just when I've finished polish translation... for 1.1.23
Anyway, there are still strings, which need to be organized. Not included in en_US folders/files:
[sql files]

[xml files] - intended?

Thanks, I'll grab those last few text changes and move them.

Those few XML files are intended, yes.

G
 
Alright, found the God of All Creation bug. Fixing now. Was a compounding error with the caching system.

Also fixing the few other mentioned typos/quirks/bugs in a hotfix. Lastly, added in a few 'dirty' checks for city citizen reallocation. Will lose a little bit of its speed optimization, with the trade-off of city optimization.

G
 
G--

Thank you for being so responsive to these bugs and quirks. Lord knows this is a lot of work, and you don't get a penny for it. So, sincerely, thank you. Your work has given me, and a lot of other people, a lot of enjoyment.
 
Goddess of the Hunt - seems to being using the old values instead of the changed ones.
 
G--

Thank you for being so responsive to these bugs and quirks. Lord knows this is a lot of work, and you don't get a penny for it. So, sincerely, thank you. Your work has given me, and a lot of other people, a lot of enjoyment.

You're welcome! It is a labor of love (and occasionally nightmarish frustration!). :)

G
 
What's the rationale behind warriors getting better against barbarians? Crutch for the AI? Incentive to build more warriors early?

Aztec/Authority/build four Jaguars early/farm barbarians was already pretty good, it's probably great now.
 
What's the rationale behind warriors getting better against barbarians? Crutch for the AI? Incentive to build more warriors early?

Aztec/Authority/build four Jaguars early/farm barbarians was already pretty good, it's probably great now.

Gives them an early niche. Aztecs were by no means overpowered, so the Jaguar buff is useful for them (and their UA).



----------------------

In other news, I just posted a hotfix (see new thread) with some fixes. Please check that thread before you report bugs for the 3-6 version.

G
 
What's the rationale behind warriors getting better against barbarians? Crutch for the AI? Incentive to build more warriors early?

You can read the thread yourself, some guys who never built warriors complained about them being too weak and no one cared to argue against them. Really not a necessary change imho, but there you go.
 
You can read the thread yourself, some guys who never built warriors complained about them being too weak and no one cares to argue against them. Really not a necessary change imho, but there you go.

Is it that no one cares, or that no one objects? There's a significant difference between the two. In any case, giving an early unit a niche is perfectly reasonable.

G
 
- Does the Stonehenge needs a number of policies unlocked? By the time you get 2 policies, it's likely you already got your pantheon up.

Stonehenge is slightly problematic in the new system, as its effect is so focused around the first few turns. The policy requirement also prevents the free council from being useful (councils are too important to wait until you have 2 policies).
________

Generally, the very early game science still needs fine-tuning IMHO.

While doing some research, I found that gaining science might dominate our early tech choices too much, mostly through the absence of other immediately important things to unlock (paradoxically, establishing a science source during the first few turns is less important than it seems!).
Here are the details:

Current early sources (TC = tech column):
  • [TC 0]3 free science from palace
  • [TC 1]1 science from council (plus some minor instant science)
  • [TC 1]10% food to science conversion from granary
  • [TC 2]10% gold to science conversion from market
  • [TC 3]10% production to science conversion from forge
  • [TC 3]2 science from library (plus scientist slot)
  • [TC 5]3 science from university (plus scientist slot, plus science from forest/jungle)
  • [TC 5]10% culture to science conversion from garden

Tech cost per column:
  • [TC 1] 29:c5science:
  • [TC 2] 64:c5science:
  • [TC 3] 134:c5science:
  • [TC 4] 234:c5science:
  • [TC 5] 292:c5science:
  • [TC 6] 525:c5science:

As we can see, the free science from the palace will take you through the first (and maybe second) column techs at reasonable speeds. From column 3 upwards it becomes negligible however. I first underestimated this, thinking that we need to establish science just as fast as culture or faith. But contrary to those two yields you'll have a solid influx of science even when not immediately focusing on it (for comparison, palace has only one free culture and zero faith).
Of course, even if we may ignore science for a few turns, we'll need to improve it very soon to stay competitive.

If we compare the first few techs for immediately useful/desirable unlocks, this is the current situation:
  • To get the immensely important early faith (pantheons!) and culture (tile acquisition!) we don't need any tech - shrines and monuments are already unlocked.
  • Unlocking military units isn't a priority while the first few techs are researched. During the first few dozen turns you don't have settlers or workers needing escort, no improvements to be protected from pillage and the AI won't usually rush you.
  • Unveiling ressources is often a lottery - you might not benefit at all from techs like animal husbandry.
--> If your start doesn't have resource tiles worthy of an immediate unlock, getting science or rushing a settler (or stonehenge once its policy requirement is fixed) is what will drive your first tech choice.

This leads us to an situation where the wheel and pottery are logical first techs far ahead of the others.
Getting science is the (overly) dominant issue of the first few turns, reducing choice.

This doesn't change anytime soon:
  • There is no culture or faith building to be unlocked during the first 3 tech columns (except wonders and the situational arena).
  • The library provides so much of the essential science that other sources can't compete, forcing you to beeline it

I guess a first attempt in fixing this would be allowing to build the Council immediately.
This would take away some pressure to rush tech-boosters when picking your first technologies.

_________________

There is another significant problem:
The 3 previously most useful buildings to improve the 3 primary yields :)c5food::c5production::c5gold:) have been changed into science buildings with an situational side-effect on those yields! This is somewhat confusing and hard to get used to given the previous role of these buildings.

Granaries only significantly improve food if the right resources are nearby. Forges are also dependent on ore tiles or running a specialist, the more generally useful mine yield bonus has moved to barracks. Markets have a similar problem, the per-pop gold is gone for good while the merchant slot went to caravansaries (IIRC).

This leaves us with a lot of situational multi-role buildings which are to understand and use, and also with several buildings that have a much different role than their name suggests and what we associated them with before.
  • Barracks is for experience and (situationally) production
  • Granary is for science and (situationally) food
  • Market is for science and (situationally) gold
  • Forge is for science and (situationally) production
  • ...
(BTW, I actually really like the garden change for some reason!)




I'm not quite sure how to improve all this yet, but I'll try to post some suggestions soon.
 
Is it that no one cares, or that no one objects? There's a significant difference between the two. In any case, giving an early unit a niche is perfectly reasonable.

G

Quite a few people stated that they think the warrior is fine the way it is, but no one bothered to actually argue for it, probably because arguing seldom leads to anything, except possibly extremely complicated and not entirely necessary science reworks :D
 
if we look at culture, how do we get early culture? well mostly from monuments, initial policies and luxury resource tiles.

however monument doubles your initial culture where as council only increase it by 33%

maybe more luxury resource apart from whales should give science. right now early amber monopoly is very powerful
 
Quite a few people stated that they think the warrior is fine the way it is, but no one bothered to actually argue for it, probably because arguing seldom leads to anything, except possibly extremely complicated and not entirely necessary science reworks :D

I'm in the camp of "warriors are fine," but I want to see how I like them with the barb changes. I think a lot of things are fine until I see them a different way. =)
 
I guess a first attempt in fixing this would be allowing to build the Council immediately.
This would take away some pressure to rush tech-boosters when picking your first technologies.

This won't fix the problem of Councils being too important. If it's immediately available at the start, then once again, no one will research The Wheel first (also given the high policy requirement for Stonehenge), and every new city will rush Council ASAP. I think a better way is to give other sources of science yields so Councils aren't too important. +1 :c5science: (and an instant 15 :c5science: ) is urgently important when you're only getting +3 each turn. However, if there are other early sources, like terrains/resources, it would devalue the Council just enough to make it balanced. +1 science is not as big if you have +7.
 
This won't fix the problem of Councils being too important.

The main problem is that science is NOT optional.
Faith is (entirely), culture to a certain degree (You can ignore social policies , but not tile acquisition. Then again, the cheap monument plus some gold-buying can earn you enough tiles to stay afloat).
Food, production and gold are also always needed, but they are found on tiles in abundance.

This leaves science in an unique position (impossible to ignore, but not "automatically" found on the map).



One solution might be to create more science buildings. More sources of science would reduce the importance of a single building.

Gazebo has done this in a certain way (as granary, forge and market are now essentially science buildings), but in a unnecessarily complicated fashion. Why tie science with other yields, what's the advantage?


Suggestions:
  • Revert granary, forge and market to their previous roles.
  • Allow the council to be built from turn 1 (or remove it entirely)
  • Add new building: "Toolmaker", unlocked through The Wheel. +1:c5science: for every mine, quarry and lumbermill
  • (Optional) Add new building: "Leatherworks", unlocked through Animal Husbandry. +1:c5science: for every pasture and camp.
This is probably imbalanced still, but it would create more sources for science, thus reducing the importance of a single building.
It would basically add science to the map, but still require you to invest something before getting the yields. It would also scale well for tall cities.
 
You know, it would make sense to give the Tercio the same "extra attack" as the Impi. After all, it's a hybrid ranged/melee unit (Muskets and Pikes/Halberds)

Muskets fire, then pikes/halberds get into it. Let me know if this makes sense.

Uncertain if the unit animation would work, but it's a natural ability for the Tercio to have.

Not sure Musketmen make sense as a ranged unit, since early firearms' effective range was maybe 40 feet (way less than bows and crossbows), but I have no problem with it. Brings back memories of Call to Power 2 :)
 
The main problem is that science is NOT optional.
Faith is (entirely), culture to a certain degree (You can ignore social policies , but not tile acquisition. Then again, the cheap monument plus some gold-buying can earn you enough tiles to stay afloat).
Food, production and gold are also always needed, but they are found on tiles in abundance.

This leaves science in an unique position (impossible to ignore, but not "automatically" found on the map).



One solution might be to create more science buildings. More sources of science would reduce the importance of a single building.

Gazebo has done this in a certain way (as granary, forge and market are now essentially science buildings), but in a unnecessarily complicated fashion. Why tie science with other yields, what's the advantage?

There is also science from policies.

I really like the first 2 columns of techs. There almost never seems to be a no-brainer tech.
 
The main problem is that science is NOT optional.
Faith is (entirely), culture to a certain degree (You can ignore social policies , but not tile acquisition. Then again, the cheap monument plus some gold-buying can earn you enough tiles to stay afloat).
Food, production and gold are also always needed, but they are found on tiles in abundance.

This leaves science in an unique position (impossible to ignore, but not "automatically" found on the map).

One solution might be to create more science buildings. More sources of science would reduce the importance of a single building.

Gazebo has done this in a certain way (as granary, forge and market are now essentially science buildings), but in a unnecessarily complicated fashion. Why tie science with other yields, what's the advantage?

The science from yields is there to allow taller civs to be more scientific. Wide civs would have more science buildings/specialists. The removal of the science per citizen from the libraries plus the reduction of tech cost per city requires that there should be a way for tall civs to keep up. Tall civs would be the ones with more yields in their individual cities so converting a percentage of those yields makes sense.

I completely agree about science being non-optional. You have to at least keep up with tech or you're going to be utterly crushed militarily, culturally, economically, and basically be reduced to irrelevance. This is certainly true historically. You cannot and should not be able to fight a civ three eras ahead of you.
 
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