WackenOpenAir
Deity
And I'm very puzzled why would people here want to go tradition? Yea, I get it: 4 free universities. But they don't make money (even in real life).
I am very puzzled why you are puzzled about this
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- Thread starter Hammer Rabbi
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I am very puzzled why you are puzzled about this
Well, I'm not going to argue with you. I just don't see what I'm missing. (Maybe, you'll explain to me?I am very puzzled why you are puzzled about this
) AFAIK, tradition doesn't help you make more money or get city states' favor. It makes even less sense to me to delay the finisher ---which, for me, is the most important part of Tradition--- to the point where you are no longer going to benefit from it. (Surely, you would have aqueducts up by the time you hit Education!)
Well the Wat is free so thats 8 gp a turn iirc. Tradition generates 1 gp per 2 pop fron the Cap. So that is probably 12 gpt when you get to monarchy. 4 free Wats is a considerable time savings versus building them, and 2700 gold savings over buying them. Its not a bad strategy, i just dont know how easy it would be to get it all done. I guess i can give it a go since I have the next GOTM done 
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Don't forget a maintenance-free garrison unit in every city (starts at 1 gpt per unit, rising as the game goes on) and maintenance-free aqueducts (4 gpt total).
Also, you don't have to divert to Engineering for the free aqueducts (in fact, if you can finish the game without Machinery, Scientific Theory, etc., you can get away with never researching Engineering, while still getting your free aqueducts).
Also, you don't have to divert to Engineering for the free aqueducts (in fact, if you can finish the game without Machinery, Scientific Theory, etc., you can get away with never researching Engineering, while still getting your free aqueducts).
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Well, I'm not going to argue with you. I just don't see what I'm missing. (Maybe, you'll explain to me?
You act as if you need a special reason to choose tradition. I think it is usually the other way around. Tradition is the standard and you need a special reason to deviate from it. Tradition simply is a stronger option in most games.
I have however not yet looked into and plans for this specific GOTM and the options in regards to these free universities so i may be overlooking things.
I suppose you are talking about the option of delaying the finisher of tradition in order to get the free universities. I also derive from your post that you consider the universities a benefit from tradition talk about not seeing a reason to go tradition at all. (and thus not going for the free universities).
It seems to me you are not considering the option to simply go tradition without free universities. Thinking the delayed tradition with free universities is not a better option than liberty does not mean that the normal way of going tradition isnt either. That is just another option to consider instead of the default that is simply going tradition and filling it without delay.
I dont have enough experience (espescially not in freedom) to say how the gold will compare with freedom. Tradition does help with gold trough monarchy. It also helps because a tall empire pays much less building maintenance while having the buildings available for all its population. For now i view gold a the side issue though. I think the focus is on research and on defeating 6 of the 7 AIs. The rest shouldnt be too hard i imagine.
I also think since it is archipelago, you are unlikely to have much space for early expansion.
PS: in this awesome post stormtrooper412 told me most about what i need to know about the voting mechanics. One of the things he writes is:
One more thing i want to ask though: Is there no reduction for destroying other civs ?
Instead of paying 160 hammers and 2gpt for a Wat, you pay 140 hammers and 2 gpt for the 2 cultural bulidings though.
So the real advantage you gain from doing this free wat trick is a bunch of culture and having the universities some ~8-15 turns earlier depending on your cities production. The production and maintenance cost is fairly similar. ( I dont think you should take the buying of universities into comparison, you dont have the money to buy them at that point in the game anyway)
Since if you dont do the wat trick, you will be getting free monuments and you will build the universities, the culture gain is actually only 1 culture per turn. You could sell the aphitheatres to turn that 1 cpt into 1gpt + a small lump sum. We have about 100 turns of game to go. In addition you get about 20-25 science boost per city 8-15 turns earlier.
So the total benefits are:
- 800-1000 science
- 80 hammers
- 400 culture OR 500 gold
Siam's university replacement, the Wat, is also a culture building, so you can get 4 free Wats when you take Legalism, but only if you have already built monuments, amphitheaters and libraries in your first 4 cities at the time you take Legalism. So, to do that gambit, you need to delay taking Legalism, not just the Tradition finisher, which means finding replacement policies into which you can sink culture while you tech to Education and build monuments, amphitheaters and libraries.
You only need to delay until get amphitheaters built. Once those are built you can finish tradition. I can see tradition opener and liberty to the free settler get your four cities up and the culture buildings built. While that is going on fill out tradition, waiting on legalism if you need to.
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WackenOpenAir
Deity
Ye all in all, i still see no reason to consider not going tradition.
Its either basic normal full undelayed tradition or the Wat trick imo.
If you're going a non military approach tradition is the way to go.
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WackenOpenAir
Deity
Not if going military ?
No, you're not likely to build 4 cities, and would have 6 puppets. Liberty becomes more viable, the happiness for city connection, the free worker and settler, and a free gp (scientist) On archipelago you can rush to navigation and should be able to clear the map with frigates and privateers
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WackenOpenAir
Deity
Someone wrote about gifting them to the remaining civs.
Even if you keep them i have my doubts though.
Even if you keep them i have my doubts though.
Its hard to give them away after you eliminate a couple of civs. You also have no control over if they get liberated if you give them away.
If you're not going to build 4 cities tradition becomes less valuable. Also if you're going military you're not going to want huge cities.
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If you're not going to build 4 cities tradition becomes less valuable. Also if you're going military you're not going to want huge cities.
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WackenOpenAir
Deity
Well, that last part is what im not really getting. Why would i not want 4 huge cities ?
Happiness should be plentyful when buying all CSes and research would probably suck if i dont build 4 huge cities. Those puppets arent all that awesome.
The one who wrote about gifting cities also wrote to gift them to the most agressive AI so he wont liberate them. So thats my intention.
Happiness will be the limiting factor in the midgame.
Typically there are maybe 2 luxury unique to the CS plus the 2 from commerce CS. Plus 3 from each commerce CS friend. Its immortal dif so its going to take some time to catch up on tech and economy that will make buying CS harder. Im not convinced that military is faster, but i think its faster via liberty.
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Typically there are maybe 2 luxury unique to the CS plus the 2 from commerce CS. Plus 3 from each commerce CS friend. Its immortal dif so its going to take some time to catch up on tech and economy that will make buying CS harder. Im not convinced that military is faster, but i think its faster via liberty.
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IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
The real question is - what's gonna give you navigation faster - tradition or liberty?
Wild_Woojsha
Scourge_Of_G0d
That's the problem with the 4 free wat plan too, Tradition will absolutely get you there faster if you play it out normally completing it around turn 80-90 instead of turn 120-150. Those free aquaducts can get a lot done in 40-60 turns...
Education will be delayed by the need to get optics and the delay in getting expos up and running. This is one of the few times where the hybrid of liberty and tradition works. You will need to get sailing to get triremes to do your scouting. Optics to expand. That will delay you in getting to education, slower pop growth. Later NC. To get 4 free Wats youre looking at legalism T80 or later T100 more probably. On immortal im not sure how much expansion will be available. If we're lucky there will be room for 2 expo in the starting island. More probably 1, and possibly 0 if it is shared with a CS. A run thru Liberty gets an early GS to plant. Which will get the tech going 8bpt faster.
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budweiser
King of the Beers
I'm not sure you need to embark any units before Education do you?
Setlers...
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