No Culture Flip Strategy

[Generalissimo]

I first came up with this strategy yesterday when I wanted to take control of a far away island that had alot more culture than me. I was worried that I couldn't get a good foothole on the island and that the cities I could get on it would flip.

I started out by picking my one of my 12 person cities that was surrounded by grasslands and had few shields a turn. I then irrigated everysquare so that it would only have 3 shields a turn coming in. Then I surrounded it with calvery and musketmen.

After I set that up I traded it to the people on the island and they took it over as their own, but since it was deep in my territory it had no units defending it and I could take it back anytime I wanted.

Then i sailed a fleet of alot of caravels loaded with 20 calvery, 10 cannons, and 15 musketmen over to the island. I used the cannon to destroy all of their citie's population to 9 or 10 population and then I captured the capitol. Just as I planned, the capitol flipped to the size 12 city i had given them deep in my territory. So I went ahead and captured all of the cities on the far away island without worrying about them cultureflipping because their palace was half way across the map. Once i took out all of the cities it was easy to take over the new capitol. I think its only defender was a spearman or two.


Has anyone else tried this?

 

[billindenver]

Pretty interesting strategy, but it isn't guaranteed. I've heard that the palace doesn't always go to the biggest city, that other factors are involved. However, if your city was far bigger, chances are it would go there on the 1st or 2nd try in most cases.

That certainly was an original idea! Might have to try that sometime!

 

[morkaphi]

I second billindenver's point that the capital does not necessarily move to the biggest available city, though I don't know the criteria either.

However, I was wondering that, if you can use cannons to hit every AI city down to 9-10 pop, I assume your military force is far superior than the AI's, and with that probably you can simply wipe out the AI civ in a few turns.

The strategy seems interesting, but I also consider the preparation work and rep hit big costs to bear.

 

[[GoD]Toxic]

Could work - could not work... Either way i will try it out! This could be a GOOD war strategy

 

[Michael York]

Yes, he could just take over the enemy's cities, but they would culture flip. (hence the reason for this strategy) This allows for the conquest of a distant continent without that annoying culture flip which seems so much worse than it actually is. Plus, you can fight an effective ww1 style game. Personally I prefer to starve the slaves off.

 

[Gothmog]

I think that one factor in where the capitol goes is the local culture of the city in question, that would explain why it doesn't always go to the civ's biggest city but often ends up in a city with a wonder. I don't know all the factors either though, and there may be some randomness involved too. I am actually somewhat surprized it went to the city within your territory. Also, I assume there was no overlap with other cities of yours otherwise you could be looking at a culture flip in you core.

While creative, this stratagy seems like a lot of work to go to for the outcome. I mean just the temporary loss of a size 12 city is alot. If you can afford to give up a size 12 city you can afford to station a couple troops outside a city that may flip (which is what I do). It only comes back with one defender after all.

 

[Eclectic99]

Would you call this tactic an exploit?

 

[Shillen]

Would you call this tactic an exploit?

I know I wouldn't do it personally. But I'm sure most people would say it's not an exploit. There's a lot of shady play I see people post about that I would never do.

 

[morkaphi]

Probably not an exploit, IMHO.

Maybe just because I don't see a great deal of feasibility executing this strategy. The only way to completely prevent culture flips is to eliminate the civ, and this is the actual idea of the original post... With this kind of military advantage, flipping should no longer be a factor.

 

[EdwardTking]

I like this; but does it not presuppose that the AI Civ has not got a Forbidden Palace anywhere useful?

 

[DaveMcW]

What is so bad about culture flips? Just keep your troops out of cities and recapture the ones that flip.

 

[Shillen]

What is so bad about culture flips? Just keep your troops out of cities and recapture the ones that flip.

This is actually what I don't like about culture flips. Basically if you leave your troops outside then the people of the city decide to abandon you and join the other civ. But then your troops move in and subdue them. But then if you leave your troops inside, they flip and your troops just disappear. Why can your troops subdue them in the first case but not the second? I think if you have enough troops inside the city so that they'd be able to take it back after a flip then the city shouldn't be able to flip. Hope that made sense. I just think they could have implemented culture flips better.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Michael York
Yes, he could just take over the enemy's cities, but they would culture flip. (hence the reason for this strategy) This allows for the conquest of a distant continent without that annoying culture flip which seems so much worse than it actually is.

But if he had the means to bombard all cities down to size 9/10, he probably had the means to take over all enemy cities in a short time as well. And as soon as the enemy civ was eliminated, all flip chances would be eliminated as well. Citizens of a nationality belonging to an eliminated civ is treated as your nationality for flipping calculations.

 

[Ecco]

Hm...

I say slaughter them. Or if you are fond of being a huomon-louvour (that's human-lover in french), bomb them down to size 2! And then they will pose no threat!

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

In a game a few weeks ago I captured the Indian capitol and continued my war machine in taking the cities surrounding the ex-capitol. The new Indian capitol flipped pretty far away. I stationed a couple of MI (modern age) in it only to have it flip 2 or 3 turns later and at least 6 or 8 tiles inside my borders. This game was under 1.07f and I don't know if a similar thing will happen with the 1.29f patch. That was the only time I've had a city of my possession flip, but then again I tend to build high culture as well so that other civs are in awe of mine. This one thing seems to stem the tide of cities flipping away from me (and allows me to recieve other cities flipping to me.)

Moral of the story: The amount of culture in a city builds up over time and may in and of itself cause a flip after you've captured the city. I've seen comments from Soren (lead programmer for Civ3) posted here that state that citizens in a captured city remember the culture of their nationality. That being said the only way to absolutely insure no culture flips when you conquer a city is to annihilate the other civ completely.

My current game I've had something like 5 cities flip to me from three other civs before half way through the Middle Ages. It's the easiest way to "conquer" cities.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Dwarven Zerker
Moral of the story: The amount of culture in a city builds up over time and may in and of itself cause a flip after you've captured the city. I've seen comments from Soren (lead programmer for Civ3) posted here that state that citizens in a captured city remember the culture of their nationality. That being said the only way to absolutely insure no culture flips when you conquer a city is to annihilate the other civ completely.

No, the moral of the story is that for every city that contains foreign citizens, or has tiles under foreign control, there is a "simple" formula that calculates the flip chance every turn, and a random number drawn to see whether it flips. You can go to the city view and see how many foreign citizens there are, and they will slowly become your citizens, but as long as they are of a foreign nationality, they may trigger a flip, unless you have enough military units there.

My current game I've had something like 5 cities flip to me from three other civs before half way through the Middle Ages. It's the easiest way to "conquer" cities.

The flip chances has been degraded somewhat in later patches. You should really use the 1.29 patch. Not necessarily because of the reduced flip chances, but the game is much better with it overall.

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

Been using that patch for a few weeks now. The turn I captured the Indian capitol I captured two or three other cities thereby advancing my cultural borders beyond the ex-Indian capitol. By the time the Indian capitol flipped back to Indian control it was about 8 tiles inside my cultural border so there was no cultural overlap with what was left of the Indian civ. It flipped because of the foreign citizens only. The reason the foreigners flipped it was due to a concept that they remembered their old culture and returned to it. Granted I left it at size 13 or 15 so I would have had to station an obscene number of military to prevent a flip. I simply retook the city and no flips since. My current procedure is to bomb it down to size 4 or 5, take the town, starve it down to 1 pop and let my citizens build it up.

As for population changing nationalities? Only after dozens of turns- maybe. I think what most people think of changing of citizens is the addition of your own citizens to the existing foreign citizens. If you float the mouse over each citizen in city view you'll see their nationality. Do this in a city you captured 10 or 20 turns ago and you'll find the foreign citizens are mixed in with yours.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Dwarven Zerker
My current procedure is to bomb it down to size 4 or 5, take the town, starve it down to 1 pop and let my citizens build it up.

It's the only way to go, unless you are about to destroy the civ altogether. Leave 1-2 offensive units outside the city also. If it flips back while being starved down, there is usually only 1 defender and it's easy to retake. It's still a pain though.

 

[Moulton]

According to formulas provided, enough troops will prevent a flip. My experience is that I don't have that many troops. Maybe if I put a hundred or more in there....
It seems that there is less chance of flip with only one unit, after resistance is quelled, instead of many. Formula not withstanding.
I have American cities in my current game with one unit that have not flipped, and one with many that did....
I do not like the starvation polidy -- altough I use it becuase it seems the only way to go -- I see myself as a liberator, not cruel conquerer. I know, its only a game. But I do role play it.
Citizens do change over to your own nationality in time, plus any you add to the city, and eventually it would become 'nationalized.'

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Moulton
According to formulas provided, enough troops will prevent a flip. My experience is that I don't have that many troops. Maybe if I put a hundred or more in there....
It seems that there is less chance of flip with only one unit, after resistance is quelled, instead of many. Formula not withstanding.
I have American cities in my current game with one unit that have not flipped, and one with many that did....
I do not like the starvation polidy -- altough I use it becuase it seems the only way to go -- I see myself as a liberator, not cruel conquerer. I know, its only a game. But I do role play it.
Citizens do change over to your own nationality in time, plus any you add to the city, and eventually it would become 'nationalized.'

When I first started playing civ, my advisor would always say to leave lots of strong units there to squelch resistance and prevent flipping. I had lots of flipping problems, so I started stationing lots of good units in the city - armies of tanks and modern armor, e.g. When I lost about 30 modern armor on one city flip, I abandoned that strategy and learned to live with starvation.

Another alternative (if you are in despotism) is pop-rushing (or just building) workers and settlers. It's not quite as brutal. You can always join the workers/settlers to your core cities, where their nationality won't cause flipping problems. Be aware though that they'll be unhappy if you stay at war.