No Modding Tools, Please!

[Afforess]

Firaxis, I urge you to ignore the shortsighted requests for advanced modding editors and the like. They are trivial and unimportant. Creating them will take valuable time away from actually improving Civ5's features.

We don't need a good map editor, the worldbuilder in Civ4 was fine. For those who disagree, you know you can open Worldbuilder files up in Notepad, right? All of the data for each individual tile, city, and the game in general was all well organized out. Anyone with some time to kill could have created a stunning scenario. A quality map editor would take a lot more time to create and would still not be very intuitive to use. It's simply impossible to create an interface that accurately gives all the options to edit a game in an easy manner. Civilization is too complex for that.

We don't need an XML editor. You can open XML up with an text editor. I've tried out some of the "utilities" in the Civ4 forums, but honestly, they are WAY more cumbersome than just editing the XML by hand. Any utility you make will still not satisfy the complaints of users here and they will not make XML modding any easier. It's just an excuse for more people to not learn programming. Instead of making a "universal translator" for the complainers here, spend more time improving the actual gameplay. Plus, the utilities will be rendered useless when modders add new XML fields for units, buildings, etc...

We don't need an intuitive python editor. Python is a fairly easy programming language to learn. An intuitive editor would only restrict what we can and can not do with the interface, nor would a truly intuitive editor ever be truly possible for a programming language, don't waste your time. If it was possible to make programming as simple as it was to speak your name, we wouldn't need Firaxis anymore.

We don't need a simple way to change the SDK. Just giving us the sources files is fine. We don't need hand holding. If you restrict what we can and can not do with some kind of SDK editor, it would be very damaging to potential mods. SDK mods are the best mods; losing those would mean FFH2, Rhye's Mod, and Revolutions would have never existed. Just make sure you DO give us the Source Code. The more the merrier.

Firaxis, we do not want an editor for unit art. The current art tools are very powerful, and any editor you create would not be able to match the likes of Blender or 3DSMax.

Firaxis, we don't simple and "intuitive" editors to make great mods. That would only ensure we get tons of simple and unoriginal mods. Rather, give us the source code; give us exactly what you used to create the game. Thank you.

 

[EdCase]

Firstly who is this "we" ?

Secondly modding tools and editors have never stopped any dedicated modder from ignoring/working around them in any game.

Lastly, modding tools are quite convenient for some who would wish to make straightforward mods but actually have an ongoing life outside of the game.

 

[phungus420]

Civ4's modding potential is very good. I hope we get a similar setup in civ5. That said, they really should take the time to build a better working and more intuitive, and external scenario editor. The WB in civ4 is pretty much rubbish, and editing the text manually in the WBS documents is tedious and difficult; it would certainly be worth their time to build a better way.

Agree on XML though, you can't really get much simpler then directly working with the XML in a text editor; XML utilities or other "ease of the user" type tools for hobby moders will likely just be more clunky then just digging into the XML anyway, and will likely end up causing more harm then good.

 

[Dale]

Please, quote the source confirming XML, python and SDK.

Otherwise, your post is groundless.

 

[Afforess]

Please, quote the source confirming XML, python and SDK.

Otherwise, your post is groundless.

If there is no SDK, then modding will be groundless.

 

[Afforess]

Secondly modding tools and editors have never stopped any dedicated modder from ignoring/working around them in any game.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you Civilization 3 as my evidence. I rest my case.

Lastly, modding tools are quite convenient for some who would wish to make straightforward mods but actually have an ongoing life outside of the game.

Straightforward mods are not that time consuming to make. Give yourself a good evening and you can add a few dozen new units or buildings to the game pretty easily; in Civ4.

 

[Takhisis]

There wasn't SDK in pre-civ4 games and we got to do a lot. I'd actually like a map editor and then edit the XML files for tiles, units, etc. You can always get XML editors online. There's a few on sourceforge, try them out and choose one.
For civ3, there wasn't any unitmaker program. So? FLICster appeared. Reverse engineering. All that is really required is the source code (Afforess is right) and -PLEASE- a world editor. But extra tools would always be nice. As long as they aren't the only tols that are usable .

 

[Seventh Child]

Firaxis, I urge you to ignore the shortsighted requests for advanced modding editors and the like. They are trivial and unimportant. Creating them will take valuable time away from actually improving Civ5's features.

These kinds of tools are often developed to make the development process itself easier. Take for example how we've seen two Civs so far (America and Germany if I recall). Now imagine putting in 16 more (Of course, I would assume that these are not the only two that are already being developed). If you developed a tool to put these other civs in faster and more efficiently, you're saving time. You can then just release this tool with the software for modders.

Civ 4 was pretty easy to mod though.

 

[Afforess]

These kinds of tools are often developed to make the development process itself easier. Take for example how we've seen two Civs so far (America and Germany if I recall). Now imagine putting in 16 more (Of course, I would assume that these are not the only two that are already being developed). If you developed a tool to put these other civs in faster and more efficiently, you're saving time. You can then just release this tool with the software for modders.

I'm operating under the assumption they are not using such modding tools. I did state that if they were, they should release them to us:

Rather, give us the source code; give us exactly what you used to create the game.

 

[largedarryl]

I was going to come in here and complain about your title, but looking at subject of your text I need to agree with you.

The only thing I am against is when a game is created in a way that makes it impossible to mod the things you mentioned. Civ 4 was nearly a perfect example of how to make a game modable. I would complain if the game was made less modable (i.e. pulling stuff into the executable).

 

[Earthling]

Actually, I first I thought this was a sarcastic joke - that you wanted all the editing tools. Because if there was a good mapbuilder and so on, yes, the community would want them...But then there is also this, which I agree with - the SDK and source are vital. And I wouldn't want them sacrificing superficial "modability" for actual access and utility- "hey, you can make your own map, but you can't actually mod anything else easily."

Anyway, if I even get civ V at all, I will be looking forward to some great mods...so thanks in advance to all the modders.

 

[Dale]

If there is no SDK, then modding will be groundless.

Not entirely true. Look at what scient has done for SMAC without one line of source code.

And then after looking at that, look at Call to Power 2 which came with no source code. There were some very major mods issued for that using the inbuilt script language. Firaxis don't even need to give us a Civ4 styled SDK (the direct VS2003 project files). If the engine has a good enough script language and API then we can still do anything.

One consideration you have to keep in mind is the licenses of the components they're using in the engine. If they strictly prohibit providing the source code for (such as GameBryo in Civ4) then we won't see it. What we will actually get access to in terms of modding is related to what they are allowed to give us.

As I said, where is the source of your confirmation of XML, Python and SDK?

 

[Afforess]

And then after looking at that, look at Call to Power 2 which came with no source code. There were some very major mods issued for that using the inbuilt script language. Firaxis don't even need to give us a Civ4 styled SDK (the direct VS2003 project files). If the engine has a good enough script language and API then we can still do anything.

One consideration you have to keep in mind is the licenses of the components they're using in the engine. If they strictly prohibit providing the source code for (such as GameBryo in Civ4) then we won't see it. What we will actually get access to in terms of modding is related to what they are allowed to give us.

Anecdotal evidence is meaningless. I can throw around a bunch of games with no SDK that also have ZERO mods for them.

As I said, where is the source of your confirmation of XML, Python and SDK?

SDK is assumed, without it there is no "unprecedented modding tools...". It may not literally be the source files like Civ4, but if it is entirely omitted, modders can skip Civ5 for sure.

As for XML and Python, you are reading too much into it. Replace them with "generic scripting languages" if you will.

 

[mechaerik]

Civ4's modding potential is very good. I hope we get a similar setup in civ5. That said, they really should take the time to build a better working and more intuitive, and external scenario editor. The WB in civ4 is pretty much rubbish, and editing the text manually in the WBS documents is tedious and difficult; it would certainly be worth their time to build a better way.

Agree on XML though, you can't really get much simpler then directly working with the XML in a text editor; XML utilities or other "ease of the user" type tools for hobby moders will likely just be more clunky then just digging into the XML anyway, and will likely end up causing more harm then good.

Agreed on all counts.

 

[Dale]

Anecdotal evidence is meaningless. I can throw around a bunch of games with no SDK that also have ZERO mods for them.

You said without an SDK that modding is groundless. I was giving you titles where there was no SDK but still mods. Without an SDK modding is NOT groundless, just a lot harder.

SDK is assumed, without it there is no "unprecedented modding tools...". It may not literally be the source files like Civ4, but if it is entirely omitted, modders can skip Civ5 for sure.

I wouldn't assume anything is provided. Remember, it's marketing who write those PR details, not the devs. Remember, we were promised "unprecedented modding tools" with Civ4 Colonization but didn't see anything resembling that.

As for XML and Python, you are reading too much into it. Replace them with "generic scripting languages" if you will.

That's better, but your OP was discussing XML and Python. I was responding to that.

 

[Afforess]

You said without an SDK that modding is groundless. I was giving you titles where there was no SDK but still mods. Without an SDK modding is NOT groundless, just a lot harder.

Without an SDK, the mods we will see will be on par with current Civ3 mods. Civ3 mods pale in comparison to Civ4 mods. I would go as far to say that there aren't really any Civ3 mods so much as there are Civ3 game tweaks.

I wouldn't assume anything is provided. Remember, it's marketing who write those PR details, not the devs. Remember, we were promised "unprecedented modding tools" with Civ4 Colonization but didn't see anything resembling that.

C4C was just an extensive mod of Civ4. They couldn't offer anything more than they already had with Civ4. Civ5 is a completely new game engine.

However, I do have a fear that by "unprecedented modding tools" they mean something like the creature creators in Spore. I will be very very unhappy if that's all it is.

 

[Takhisis]

Without an SDK, the mods we will see will be on par with current Civ3 mods. Civ3 mods pale in comparison to Civ4 mods. I would go as far to say that there aren't really any Civ3 mods so much as there are Civ3 game tweaks.

You should not be so openly contemptuous of civ III modders. We really love the game and we do the best we can to reverse-engineer some of the things that the uber-morons at Firaxis continue to refuse to release even after civ5 is announced so it's lost all commercial value.

C4C was just an extensive mod of Civ4. They couldn't offer anything more than they already had with Civ4. Civ5 is a completely new game engine.

Why would you want such a completely new engine except for incorporating hexagons and perhaps a better AI if civ IV is so good?

However, I do have a fear that by "unprecedented modding tools" they mean something like the creature creators in Spore. I will be very very unhappy if that's all it is.

Individually customisable units + hexagons? Where do I have to sign?

 

[Thorburne]

Firaxis, I urge you to ignore the shortsighted requests for advanced modding editors and the like. They are trivial and unimportant. Creating them will take valuable time away from actually improving Civ5's features.

As I said in my thread requesting a good, user-friendly editor, building an editor along side the game (by the developers who get paid to make the game) will not steal any valuable time from the game itself.

We don't need a good map editor, the worldbuilder in Civ4 was fine. For those who disagree, you know you can open Worldbuilder files up in Notepad, right? All of the data for each individual tile, city, and the game in general was all well organized out. Anyone with some time to kill could have created a stunning scenario. A quality map editor would take a lot more time to create and would still not be very intuitive to use. It's simply impossible to create an interface that accurately gives all the options to edit a game in an easy manner. Civilization is too complex for that.

The Civ 4 editor was very limited in its capability. For those of us that have lives outside of the game, if we wanted to build a map on our own, we had to start a custom game, enter the world builder, spend countless hours placing the terrain and features, placing the civs (making sure that there fog-of-war was cleared from their generated start positions), placing resources, and so on... and if we exited and tried to go back in later, we would run into a slew of problems.

You must never have played Civ III or used its editor. Because it was external, it was faster, much easier to use, you could save and come back without any problems and so on. Oh, and going into the notepad editor is purely a pain. I am not a programmer and don't want to have to scroll through 5 million lines to change a couple things. It can easily be done in an editor.

We don't need an XML editor. You can open XML up with an text editor. I've tried out some of the "utilities" in the Civ4 forums, but honestly, they are WAY more cumbersome than just editing the XML by hand. Any utility you make will still not satisfy the complaints of users here and they will not make XML modding any easier. It's just an excuse for more people to not learn programming. Instead of making a "universal translator" for the complainers here, spend more time improving the actual gameplay. Plus, the utilities will be rendered useless when modders add new XML fields for units, buildings, etc...

The utilities in the forums were being made by people who were sacrificing there time, for free, to work on these editors, which was taking time away from them being able to work on their own projects. I salute them for their efforts, even if nothing really good ever came from it. The XML files, like the worlbuilder files, were very cumbersome and a pain to sort through... not to mention having to go through multiple files to make sure that you covered all the bases for one little edit. Plus, as Dale said, who says they are using XML this time. Read the news, Civ V is built from a whole new engine.

We don't need an intuitive python editor. Python is a fairly easy programming language to learn. An intuitive editor would only restrict what we can and can not do with the interface, nor would a truly intuitive editor ever be truly possible for a programming language, don't waste your time. If it was possible to make programming as simple as it was to speak your name, we wouldn't need Firaxis anymore.

Easy for who... those who already know how to program? Many of us don't have the time to learn all of these things just so that we can play a game.

We don't need a simple way to change the SDK. Just giving us the sources files is fine. We don't need hand holding. If you restrict what we can and can not do with some kind of SDK editor, it would be very damaging to potential mods. SDK mods are the best mods; losing those would mean FFH2, Rhye's Mod, and Revolutions would have never existed. Just make sure you DO give us the Source Code. The more the merrier.

Obviously, if you do want the SDK, then you want the ability to mod... you are just being selfish and want the ability to do so to lay with those that have Computer Science Degrees. For them to release the basic tools mentioned above, it does not mean that they have to gimp the advanced tools for advanced modders. I want those too so that the experts can churn out some creative and advanced mod than I could ever dream of doing without a mod team.

Firaxis, we do not want an editor for unit art. The current art tools are very powerful, and any editor you create would not be able to match the likes of Blender or 3DSMax.

Unit (as well as Leader, etc) editors are not necessary. But they would be nice and other games have proven that they could be done. They don't have to be advanced like in those games. Just enough so that people can easily change colors, attire, equipment, etc of the models to diversify just a bit so that we could easily include them with a new civ, etc. Advanced modders can still use the high end, advanced programs to create new and unique models.

Firaxis, we don't simple and "intuitive" editors to make great mods. That would only ensure we get tons of simple and unoriginal mods. Rather, give us the source code; give us exactly what you used to create the game. Thank you.

Considering that what they used to create the game probably cost them a pretty penny (have you ever looked at the prices of the tools that game designers use?), I doubt that they would give us "exactly what they used to create the game"! Some of us just want to make simple and unoriginal mods for ourselves. Some of us want to make scenarios without having to take 5 months off of work and spend 16 hours a day doing so.

Please, stop being so selfish... let us have what we want and stop complaining about our desire for advanced tools that simplify some of the modding. As I have stated over and over, I want these tools so that the rest of us can modify what we want while those that are more advanced (like Rhyse and Dale to name a few of the generous souls that like to help us out) can spend more time working on their own projects.

 

[Afforess]

You should not be so openly contemptuous of civ III modders. We really love the game and we do the best we can to reverse-engineer some of the things that the uber-morons at Firaxis continue to refuse to release even after civ5 is announced so it's lost all commercial value.

I don't want to start a Civ3 vs Civ4 debate. My opinion is already clear on the matter.

Why would you want such a completely new engine except for incorporating hexagons and perhaps a better AI if civ IV is so good?

You are misinterpreting what I am saying. I am saying that Civilization 4's modding capabilities are great. I want Civilization 5's to be even better.

Individually customisable units + hexagons? Where do I have to sign?

That would be terrible if they did that instead of what they have now for Civ4. We'd get 1 thousand look alike archers, 1 million units that try to look like reproductive organs, and no new depth to gameplay.

 

[Jeckel]

Of course there is no assurance that they will release the Civ5 source, but it would be foolish for them not to. How many bug fixes and additions were created by the community and then taken and sold by Firaxis? To many to count I would say and I personally would fire the marketing person that suggested giving up that source of free labor.

As far as license costs go, Civ4 is the perfect example. The only license that precluded release of source was Gamebyro's and they didn't release that part. XML, Python, C++, and plenty of other languages and libraries don't have such restrictions. From a monitary standpoint, there is no reason they shouldn't release their source code.

That said, if they don't release the source (and I'm not naive enough to doubt corporate execs can make such dumb decisions), then they will not get any of my money and they will have no one except themselves to blame for spoiling me with the open policies of Civ4.