Nobles' Club 335: Brennus of the Celts

[antimony]

@drewisfat

Spoiler :

For sure it might have been too much a risk, I decided to try it on T18 just because if it worked I could experiment with tech stealing which I haven't done yet. I'm planning an elepult breakout so infiltrate could help quickly recover from that, but is settling worth more in the long run, even if I get the GSpy a bit late?

 

[drewisfat]

Settling the gspy? No, I'm of the mindset that settling great people is never worth it. Scotland Yard can be worth it with a monster commerce city if you're willing to commit to espionage the whole game. Generally I just infiltrate, which also has the advantage of not committing your EPs to a specific target til the last moment, and in the meantime you have the ultimate scout. The key modifiers for getting the most out of tech steals is proximity, OB, waiting the 5 turns, and the religious modifiers.

 

[chinemol]

went for inmortal, think I need some advice. title of the save is overwritten

Spoiler :

first inmortal in a lot of time. settled stone, settled nortward first, secured ivory couple flood plains. on the south not much to see. settled mostly to cut mao off. diplo not many issues, but not a lot of security. accepted religion, remained without when possible. cath decided to come in. got 10 turn advantage, but forgot to beg from everyone else. mao too though without stack. zara came to my aid and made peace with cath. now julius is comming, can't bribe him off.
tech path is wath I ussually see inm players do except I went for music for the artist to help farm great person in a golden age. close to lib, but not there yet. the issue is I don't have horses, so don't know how to pivot this.
thanks in advance

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@chinemol :

Spoiler :

It seems your plans were interrupted when Mao DoWed you and you had to organize a defence in emergency. We can also see that Roman stack coming your way. Surely, Caesar is smelling blood !
Things would appear a little problematic at this point, if it weren't for a simple fact, which I guess you haven't come to realize, yet : The war is already won ; you have won the war

So, congrats on a successful defence ! Doing what needs to be done, etc. Even though I'm sure there has been a couple of stressful turns, the kill/loss ratio speaks volumes...
So, you can buy peace with Mao for some gold (don't gift him the city he asks ) and resume your seemingly peaceful plans

You have a lock on Liberalism. I guess a Cuirassiers stampede is the easiest way to complete the map. Don't worry about horses, you'll get a trade at some point.
Playing towards that, you're extremely well set up for a Golden Age, switching into Caste and Pacifism. Given that you already have Education, perhaps consider raising Merchants for upgrades ?
I suppose you've neglected your civics a little bit ? The Confucianist Apostolic Palace is ideal for you.
Before the Caste switch, I would probably spend a few turns in Organized Religion, so as to complete the spread and spam those sweet, sweet Confu buildings everwhere.

So, just tech up Mind your diplo and trade opportunities.
There's no need to war on the AIs terms. You can go to war on your own terms and sac pop to produce the units you really want. There's no need to whip Catapults when you're so well set up to entre the Renaissance.
For now, you have all the defensive force you need. You can abandon all catapults that are in queues. Gather your 4th Elephant to your city, which is an excellent defensive spot. And, if you're really worried about Caesar (I wouldn't be, at this point), perhaps produce a couple more Elephants.
My assessment is that Missionaries are a better investment than Elephants, however

 

[chinemol]

@chinemol :

Spoiler :

It seems your plans were interrupted when Mao DoWed you and you had to organize a defence in emergency. We can also see that Roman stack coming your way. Surely, Caesar is smelling blood !
Things would appear a little problematic at this point, if it weren't for a simple fact, which I guess you haven't come to realize, yet : The war is already won ; you have won the war

So, congrats on a successful defence ! Doing what needs to be done, etc. Even though I'm sure there has been a couple of stressful turns, the kill/loss ratio speaks volumes...
So, you can buy peace with Mao for some gold (don't gift him the city he asks ) and resume your seemingly peaceful plans

You have a lock on Liberalism. I guess a Cuirassiers stampede is the easiest way to complete the map. Don't worry about horses, you'll get a trade at some point.
Playing towards that, you're extremely well set up for a Golden Age, switching into Caste and Pacifism. Given that you already have Education, perhaps consider raising Merchants for upgrades ?
I suppose you've neglected your civics a little bit ? The Confucianist Apostolic Palace is ideal for you.
Before the Caste switch, I would probably spend a few turns in Organized Religion, so as to complete the spread and spam those sweet, sweet Confu buildings everwhere.

So, just tech up Mind your diplo and trade opportunities.
There's no need to war on the AIs terms. You can go to war on your own terms and sac pop to produce the units you really want. There's no need to whip Catapults when you're so well set up to entre the Renaissance.
For now, you have all the defensive force you need. You can abandon all catapults that are in queues. Gather your 4th Elephant to your city, which is an excellent defensive spot. And, if you're really worried about Caesar (I wouldn't be, at this point), perhaps produce a couple more Elephants.
My assessment is that Missionaries are a better investment than Elephants, however

thanks!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

With pleasure Some more :

Spoiler :

The tl;dr of my above post is that : if you're waging a defensive war, you need to make sure you can win on the defence (which you did), but you do not need to transition into an offensive war. The hammer and commerce cost is much, much lower on the defence than it is on the offence.
I'm very well aware that the transition point of "when the war is won" can be hard to assess (aka when you can resume peaceful building). And it is credible that it was only very recently in your game.

As a general practice, you can check for peace conditions (offering gold or small techs) after you wipe out an offensive stack (make sure you do with Caesar).

That said,
I had not realized that Catherine had DoWed you and then bribed in Mao.
Sometimes there is nothing to do about it but some other times it is possible to control the bribe opportunities of the AIs.
So, when Cathy DoWs you, it would be a good practice to check what tech advantage she has over her friends (and especially those who are close to you, like Mao),
And see if a trade can deprive her of the ability to bribe in another AI. Making her the caveman.
Sometimes an option, sometimes not

 

[soundjata]

@BornInCantaloup excellent points

I'm generally too coward to attempt defensive wars but it is true that if you come out victorious (favorable peace treaty), that is at least one AI left behind.

 

[Nick723]

@BornInCantaloup excellent points

I'm generally too coward to attempt defensive wars but it is true that if you come out victorious (favorable peace treaty), that is at least one AI left behind.

Do defensive wars work post construction?

Watching AI survivor, once the catapults appear the game is usually up (and that’s my experience too).

 

[antimony]

Do defensive wars work post construction?

Watching AI survivor, once the catapults appear the game is usually up (and that’s my experience too).

Well the defender moves faster in their own land and can weaken the enemy stack by attacking first, before they do much collateral.

 

[sampsa]

Henrik's recent always war immortal game as Augustus was great. AW helps to get rid of cowardice.

 

[Nick723]

Thanks, I’ll take a look!

To clarify, when I say ‘work’ I do not mean ‘can you survive?’ but more, whether they can be productive use of resources. That is, resources you have to put into defending yourself are outweighed by positive benefits.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

To clarify, when I say ‘work’ I do not mean ‘can you survive?’ but more, whether they can be productive use of resources. That is, resources you have to put into defending yourself are outweighed by positive benefits.

No, there is nothing to gain. The scenario here is being DoWed

Spoiler :

Getting the first units out can be a challenge and, yes, you'll be defending in a city. If you open Chinemol's save you'll see archers upgraded to longbows, so, that's a cost. Whipping a mixed force of Elephants, Catapults and Axemen while you're trying to gun for Liberalism is also a cost...
There is nothing to gain, there.
This is about surviving a DoW (a triple DoW, as it happens), doing what needs to be done and cutting losses as soon as possible (aka taking peace to resume research).
This is what Chinemol did and it is exactly what needs to be done, so congrats again. I guess his question was whether he should go on the offence and the answer is no.

If you look at Chinemol's force, it is very nicely varied with about 10-15 active units that are full well capable of clearing any incoming stack in the field (well, at the gates of the city).
So the survivability question is just about unit mass. When you produce at home and have a road network, it is that much easier. Once you get that mass (not the difficult point - the difficult point is getting the first few units to resist the first wave), you can clear the top attackers/defenders with Chinemol's War Elephants and Catapults become entirely irrelevant.
Of course, it helps that Chinemol is the tech leader with a variety of strat resources. In a few turns, he'll be able to trade for Machinery (if he forgoes the Liberalilsm bulb with a GS) and be the first to field Macemen.

Waging a defensive war is about surviving. Not about conquering the agressor in the next 20 turns.

Then, if you think about the cost of conquering Mao at this point (whipping cottages / forgoing GA Paci specs / being so close to the Renaissance <-- that's an opportunity cost)
A 10 to 15 units defensive force is fully adequate but, if one were to go on the offence,
That force would probably need to be 20+ (and we wouldn't count the longbows), and then there would be maintenance for ennemy territory, and then there would be losses that would need to be replaced, and those would be more whips, and you'd be getting war weariness, etc. And that would result in a massive delay towards the Renaissance, whereas the Empire we're looking at is in an excellent shape for teching.

Resisting the first wave is not easy but when that is done, cutting the expenses asap becomes the objective (also avoids random diplo bs).

 

[chinemol]

With pleasure Some more :

Spoiler :

The tl;dr of my above post is that : if you're waging a defensive war, you need to make sure you can win on the defence (which you did), but you do not need to transition into an offensive war. The hammer and commerce cost is much, much lower on the defence than it is on the offence.
I'm very well aware that the transition point of "when the war is won" can be hard to assess (aka when you can resume peaceful building). And it is credible that it was only very recently in your game.

As a general practice, you can check for peace conditions (offering gold or small techs) after you wipe out an offensive stack (make sure you do with Caesar).

That said,
I had not realized that Catherine had DoWed you and then bribed in Mao.
Sometimes there is nothing to do about it but some other times it is possible to control the bribe opportunities of the AIs.
So, when Cathy DoWs you, it would be a good practice to check what tech advantage she has over her friends (and especially those who are close to you, like Mao),
And see if a trade can deprive her of the ability to bribe in another AI. Making her the caveman.
Sometimes an option, sometimes not

took my sweet time, but got back to this game. thanks a lot once again

Spoiler :

turns out I had the wrong mindset I guess. took easy peace with both wars. got a lock on lib, but want to wait a little to see if I can get sth better than natio. also, the game is gonna be longer than cuirs, so finishing apostolic palace buildings + forges, but also going for courthouses and since it's a charismatic leader, stables. saladin will need to be appeased with thocracy + tech and gold. zara is easy to please. gonna try to bribe alex on sala at some point to keep the flank secure.
going for a clockwise war soon as I mass some cuirs. gonna be facing at least 2 at a time at some point, but coming from the same direction, so numbers and promotions will matter.