Nobles' Club 336: Bismarck of Germany

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Bismarck of Germany, whom we last played in NC 266; we last played the Germans under Frederick in NC 276. The Germans start with Hunting and Mining.

• Traits: Bismarck is Expansive and Industrious. Expansive adds +2 to all cities, gives a +100% bonus to Granaries and Harbors, and a +25% bonus to Workers (note that the worker bonus doesn't apply to excess directly converted to ). Industrious gives a +50% bonus to all Wonders (World and National), and gives a +100% bonus to Forges.
• The UB: The Assembly Plant, a Factory with 2 additional Engineer specialist slots which also gets a +50% bonus towards it's own construction when you've got access to Coal. Factories are staple buildings in basically any game that reaches Assembly Line, and although Bismarck lacks Frederick's Organized trait the Assembly Plant's inherent production bonus will nevertheless allow you to industrialize faster than most other leaders on the map.
• The UU: The Panzer, a Tank with +50% vs. Armored units. In >99% of all situations Panzers are just bigger, beefier-looking tanks with no relevant bonus. In the <1% situation where you're fighting a tank war, however, you'll be thankful that these guys turn one of the most dangerous units of the industrial era into target practice. As for Modern Armor, all else being equal Panzers actually get winning odds against them, albeit only barely. Of course any situation in which that's relevant is a situation where you're probably doomed regardless, but that's still not bad for a base 28 unit facing a base 40 unit from a later epoch.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, Temperate climate, Medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

A few strategic resource swaps, and a river nearby your starting area was extended to turn an otherwise bleak desert wasteland into usable floodplains.

Spoiler isolated? :

Not isolated.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 336 Bismarck Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

I mean surely we can trust the game to give us only the best recommendation for where to settle our first city, meaning spending two turns moving to the desert hill is clearly the best move .

So any experts have a genius settling plan in mind, or is everyone boarding the Marble train ?

 

[soundjata]

What if corn or gems 2W?

 

[antimony]

Imagine having that start with say, Joao instead of Bismarck.

Definitely move scout 1NW here because of what @soundjata said.

If no other food is revealed here, I assume the best option is to settle marble, slow grow on clams until fishing (should be 6T on deity), making warrior, then switch to 6 hammers / turn for quick boat?

 

[soundjata]

Clams

If it's a floodplain 3E1S then we can do worker (9 turns) and Agriculture.

Otherwise maybe settler first (17 turns) ; especially if scout finds a juicy second city spot (with PH settle ideally) by turn 1.

 

[AcaMetis]

Without Fishing tech you won't be able to work water tiles, so if settle on marble has no other food nearby it will be pretty bleak to start. That said I think a 3 capital should give you options that make it better than SIP, even if it's an unusual one like settler first and (ideally) settling somewhere else along the coast that gets immediate trade routes and has something to work with in first ring. Given just the starting screenshot my first idea would be the grass hill next to the scout, that should be instantly connected and have a 3 forested plains hill in first ring to get out a quick worker locally, but of course a dozen-odd turns of Scout movement could easily reveal something else worth settling near the open tile that might be a resource, or somewhere further north and/or east of the marble.

 

[Qactus]

..., meaning spending two turns moving to the desert hill is clearly the best move...

To be fair, it's a plains hill

I can see myself settling on the marble with Fish-BW-Sailing-Masonry. After lighthouse the clams and lake will look a lot juicier. And then chop those forest into IND GLH with EXP workers

 

[konata_LS]

The start is surrounded by forests are there some pieces of Black Forest cake hidden in the map...?

Spoiler :

TBH Mining + Fishing is probably the best combo for such a clam + forests start; Biz's lacks Fishing but has Mining at least. Agree about moving the scout 1NW. If the scout didn't find something too amazing, settling on marble and researching Fishing - BW would be reasonable, I guess . Of course, if the scout sees a wet corn or grassland pig at 2W of the settler, that definitely changes the early decisions.
Biz's traits rarely lead to some fancy or unconventional gameplay, but they give solid and reliable benefits, as Granary and Forge are among the buildings people usually build in most cities. Plus, the bonus from EXP mitigates the - from forge.
Still struggling with raging barbs of the last NC , so I won't have time for this map in the near future.

Spoiler :

In the <1% situation where you're fighting a tank war, however, you'll be thankful that these guys turn one of the most dangerous units of the industrial era into target practice. As for Modern Armor, all else being equal Panzers actually get winning odds against them, albeit only barely. Of course any situation in which that's relevant is a situation where you're probably doomed regardless, but that's still not bad for a base 28 unit facing a base 40 unit from a later epoch.

When the <1% situation happens, it often requires a tough map in which the human player has to fight against a 15+ cities monster AI in the late game. Such a map is usually too brutal and too tedious for NC games.

A notable example of "tanks against modern armors" appeared in one of Lain's games (deity 19), in which he built nearly 190 tanks and lost almost half of them to kill 90+ modern armors of AI JC up to 1854AD. Ironically the leader Lain played was Lincoln, and he had to play against AI Bismarck. Lincoln is surely a strong leader, but under such rare, difficult circumstance, if the human player had chosen one of the German leaders, panzers would have made the human player suffer less loss during the late game war.

 

[danjuno]

The discussion about the game recommending the desert tile does make me want to move 1W to try and see what might be triggering the game to recommend it.

 

[AcaMetis]

From what I recall the game strangely values coastal cities really highly, for some reason. That's not to say there couldn't be wet corn, copper and gold hiding out in the fog, but it could just as easily be a whole lot of nothing.

 

[antimony]

Deity T82

Spoiler :

Settled in place after seeing cows to the west (and not knowing of the wet corn next to marble). Tech Agri-AH since I planned to settle the pig site next, which could share the capital's abundant food, then went BW to see if there was copper. Teched The Wheel and settled 3rd city to grab copper and defend against barbs (they were a lot of archers coming from the jungle to the north, possibly because Augustus got The Great Wall).

At this point, I decided to go for Masonry, settled 4th city on stone and build Pyramids before Augustus (which I got at T66). This also had the advantage of claiming the more contested lands to the west. BUT, doing that instead of settling the commerce-rich floodplains to the southeast was of course very detrimental to the economy, and I'm just recovering now after getting Fishing + Pottery. We'll see if that will be worth it in the long run. There is a guaranteed 6th city in the southeastern peninsula and probably 7th one with the plains cow + horses. I suspect Augustus will get that barb city (4 archers on a hill) since he has Praets.

I am planning to go Aesthetics after Writing if Great Library is still in play. Otherwise I am curious what experienced players would do in that kind of situation where you have contact with only two other AIs. Do you follow a typical plan like Cuirs rush or some kind of siege army to conquer your continent first? Or would you make sure to get or be close to Astro before pulling the switch from research to war focus?

Also, I am thinking that I might get more "cheap techs" from them since there will be other trading partners on the other continent(s) after I reach the WFYABTA limit.

 

[antimony]

T114: Decision time

Spoiler :

Aesthetics -> Myst -> Poly -> Lit, got a GS from the Library in Hamburg (future Philo bulb), then Hamburg completed GLib in 50 BC. Surprisingly my two neighbors didn't have Alpha, so teched it after Lit, and traded for Math, IW, Sailing and Calendar. Augustus also has Currency and Churchill has Feudalism, none of them have CoL, CS or MC, which seems a bit slow perhaps?

I am building the National Epic in Munich to have an additional city to pop a GS during a Golden Age, rather than stacking it in my capital (which has mostly GE points from the Mids) or in my GLib city. Not sure if that makes sense though, I usually don't build it but I have IND + Marble, and had a lot of "idle" production turns before getting Alpha.

Based on the demographics screen, Augustus seems #1 in power but there is probably 1 AI with slightly more land and pop than him.

Music GA is still in play, and I have horse + iron, therefore it's tempting to try to get Music and follow up with a Cuir rush. First target would likely be Churchill in that case, before he gets too many PRO gunpowder units. I haven't worked out the GP plan fully but should have 2 more GS for Edu bulb. If I get a GS in Berlin I can bulb Lib perhaps, and if a GE perhaps build Taj Mahal?

I'm still not sure on whether do to that and focus on conquering continent, or putting myself in a better position for Astro. I'm thinking of the Mehmed game (NC 331) where Cuir rush really set me behind vs. the other AI, but that one was a bit different, since the land was very rocky and conquest was delayed due to distance and Apostolic Palace antics. Here Churchill has a rather compact empire and Augustus has multiple cities at a short distance from mine, so fast Cuir conquest seems more likely.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Deity T82

Spoiler :

Settled in place after seeing cows to the west (and not knowing of the wet corn next to marble). Tech Agri-AH since I planned to settle the pig site next, which could share the capital's abundant food, then went BW to see if there was copper. Teched The Wheel and settled 3rd city to grab copper and defend against barbs (they were a lot of archers coming from the jungle to the north, possibly because Augustus got The Great Wall).

At this point, I decided to go for Masonry, settled 4th city on stone and build Pyramids before Augustus (which I got at T66). This also had the advantage of claiming the more contested lands to the west. BUT, doing that instead of settling the commerce-rich floodplains to the southeast was of course very detrimental to the economy, and I'm just recovering now after getting Fishing + Pottery. We'll see if that will be worth it in the long run. There is a guaranteed 6th city in the southeastern peninsula and probably 7th one with the plains cow + horses. I suspect Augustus will get that barb city (4 archers on a hill) since he has Praets.

I am planning to go Aesthetics after Writing if Great Library is still in play. Otherwise I am curious what experienced players would do in that kind of situation where you have contact with only two other AIs. Do you follow a typical plan like Cuirs rush or some kind of siege army to conquer your continent first? Or would you make sure to get or be close to Astro before pulling the switch from research to war focus?

Also, I am thinking that I might get more "cheap techs" from them since there will be other trading partners on the other continent(s) after I reach the WFYABTA limit.



View attachment 671598

Spoiler :

If you're committed to settling on stone, how about the Great Wall as the first play?

 

[antimony]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Do you mean having settled stone city earlier to get TGW? I didn't think of that as an option, though I was also rushing copper for barb defense.

I did settle on the stone to save the few turns building a quarry. That might have been suboptimal but I've seen Augustus get Mids really early in other games.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

We all thought about it (I'm sure). There is no alternative ; any alternative is invalid. This is turn 21 :

Spoiler :

 

[soundjata]

Is this cheating?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

No, no this is not cheating
I will say, however, this was not my first try. I dabbled with going worker or settler first before that attempt and quickly dismissed those options as invalid alternatives.
The turn is now 36 :

Spoiler :

Backtrack : We went Mysticism -> Hinduism (for obvious and very reasonable reasons ) while the capital went Warrior, wait 3 turns, Stonehenge.
So, I did forgo a Fishing -> Grow to 2, Workboat opener, which would go a long way to solve a lot of early commerce issues (probably the best opener). Starting with Agriculture -> Bronze -> Pottery, I believe runs into a bottleneck where the worker is not very useful. Early AH (compared with Pottery) is very likely a trap that will shoot your economy. This is my opinion, as far as standard play goes.

Anywaaaay,
The great people of Germanistan followed their quest for knowledge with Masonry into Bronze Working, because such were the crafts that would best suit their needs and motives.
After the Great Stonehenge was built, they decided a second settlement (a fishing village, one might say) could prove useful to gather a larger variety of resources, such as the thinest sand and wild rice and, the sceptics will say, in order to avoid overpopulation in Berlin.

Spoiler :

As a keen eye may observe, it may be the case that the German people should have switched priorities and delayed the research of Masonry until after they could fabricate bronze spears but, oblivious to criticism, they did not seem to care so much.
Instead, they set out to conquer the northern jungle that was infested with hordes of babarians and immediately trained TWO units of elite warriors, armed to the teeth with deadly clubs.

Little did they know that

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

It's insane how stronk the 3 cc tile is. You can even afford to build a stonerhenge and still get the settler out T36! Just a worker behind of typical games I guess, but lots of compensation for it. Shrine is horrible, but at least you can get it early!

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

No, no this is not cheating
I will say, however, this was not my first try. I dabbled with going worker or settler first before that attempt and quickly dismissed those options as invalid alternatives.
The turn is now 36 :

Spoiler :

Backtrack : We went Mysticism -> Hinduism (for obvious and very reasonable reasons ) while the capital went Warrior, wait 3 turns, Stonehenge.
So, I did forgo a Fishing -> Grow to 2, Workboat opener, which would go a long way to solve a lot of early commerce issues (probably the best opener). Starting with Agriculture -> Bronze -> Pottery, I believe runs into a bottleneck where the worker is not very useful. Early AH (compared with Pottery) is very likely a trap that will shoot your economy. This is my opinion, as far as standard play goes.

Anywaaaay,
The great people of Germanistan followed their quest for knowledge with Masonry into Bronze Working, because such were the crafts that would best suit their needs and motives.
After the Great Stonehenge was built, they decided a second settlement (a fishing village, one might say) could prove useful to gather a larger variety of resources, such as the thinest sand and wild rice and, the sceptics will say, in order to avoid overpopulation in Berlin.

Spoiler :

As a keen eye may observe, it may be the case that the German people should have switched priorities and delayed the research of Masonry until after they could fabricate bronze spears but, oblivious to criticism, they did not seem to care so much.
Instead, they set out to conquer the northern jungle that was infested with hordes of babarians and immediately trained TWO units of elite warriors, armed to the teeth with deadly clubs.

Little did they know that

Little did they know that...? Don't keep me on the edge of my seat!

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

I decided to indulge a little - this game is a good example for early game planning. Here's a video explaining (cc) how worker micro and tech decisions in the first 75 turns can set up a strong base for winning games.

Edit: You'll have to suffer my choice of game music lol.