People are ALLOWED to criticize.

[TrustyTory]

I just wanted to point something out to the die hard zealots who think Civ 5 is "perfect" and anyone who has an issue with it to "shut up" and "play Civ 4." I will NOT shut up and I will NOT play Civ 4 because you disagree with a point I'm making.

This all started with a thread I posted on why Earth locations are randomized, and that I enjoy playing earth maps that have historically accurate start locations. I was blasted as a whiner and got a slew of reasons as to why I was "stupid."

I've been playing Civ probably longer than several of these people have been alive. I remember Joseph Stalin as an ANSI blob on the screen. When units were flashing 1D squares. I remember getting Civ 2, which up until Civ 4, was the best release of the game. In fact I played it for almost 8 years after its release. Civ 3 was played a handful of times. I found it to be a great disappointment - until Civ 4. Yes, it was full of bugs at the beginning but it was an excellent release to us "micromanaging" strategy gamers that escape from reality to control our own empire.

I'll make this clear - I am hooked on Civ 5. Like every other Civ game, 12 hours can fly by like an instant. It's always that "just one more turn" thing that keeps me hanging on. But if I want to SUGGEST, as a PAYING customer, that things improve, that's my prorogative. For example - the graphics are not as over the top as we would believe. The interface is the same old and in fact, I sometimes feel as though I'm playing Empire: Total War or something. Civilization was an anomoly that other games tried to rip off and couldn't re-create, but realizing that this was just released, bugs will work themselves out and mods will be created.

StarCraft II lived up to all of the hype. Civ 5, I'm sure, will get there. But don't for an instance try and tell us who would like to see improvements that we are "whiners" who should "go play Civ 4" like you're accusing us of being "climate change deniers." It's absolutely counter productive and makes you sound like an 18 year old who's been told "no" to that $20 hand out and the car keys.

If I want to complain, or make suggestions, then I will do so and I could frankly care less who doesn't like me for it.

 

[Tylerryan79]

And you couldn't post this in a similar thread why? My beef is that it should all stick together in Similar threads, rather than have everyone flood the forum with same topic threads.

 

[Gorey]

Agree.. There's nothing more annoying than someone who just spent hard earned money and being unsatisifed with something... than someone else telling them to stfu and stop whining.

All the people who like it ... stay in the "happy" threads.

All the people who dont like it.. stay in "unhappy" threads.

Problem solved.

 

[TrustyTory]

Did you people even read my post? This is not an "unhappy" or "happy" thread. I play Civ religiously. I am allowed to be heard, and so are others who want to see improvements. Get over it. Don't try and censor people who have issues with the game and put them in some other thread that YOU feel is appropriate. I never said I was unhappy. I said I would like to see improvements. But if you're happy with Civ 5 v1.0, then don't upgrade when the patches come out!

 

[Gorey]

Just for the record.. im not happy with Civ 5.

Am currently alt-tabbed out of a Civ 4 game (and enjoying it).

 

[Elite]

I love Civ V, but only in SP, MP is waaay better in Civ IV.

 

[TrustyTory]

Just for the record.. im not happy with Civ 5.

Am currently alt-tabbed out of a Civ 4 game (and enjoying it).

Fair enough. I'm happy "enough" with Civ 5 - but in its current state I shouldn't have paid more than $30. That's all I'm saying!

 

[Crezth]

I just wanted to point something out to the die hard zealots who think Civ 5 is "perfect" and anyone who has an issue with it to "shut up" and "play Civ 4." I will NOT shut up and I will NOT play Civ 4 because you disagree with a point I'm making.

This all started with a thread I posted on why Earth locations are randomized, and that I enjoy playing earth maps that have historically accurate start locations. I was blasted as a whiner and got a slew of reasons as to why I was "stupid."

I've been playing Civ probably longer than several of these people have been alive. I remember Joseph Stalin as an ANSI blob on the screen. When units were flashing 1D squares. I remember getting Civ 2, which up until Civ 4, was the best release of the game. In fact I played it for almost 8 years after its release. Civ 3 was played a handful of times. I found it to be a great disappointment - until Civ 4. Yes, it was full of bugs at the beginning but it was an excellent release to us "micromanaging" strategy gamers that escape from reality to control our own empire.

I'll make this clear - I am hooked on Civ 5. Like every other Civ game, 12 hours can fly by like an instant. It's always that "just one more turn" thing that keeps me hanging on. But if I want to SUGGEST, as a PAYING customer, that things improve, that's my prorogative. For example - the graphics are not as over the top as we would believe. The interface is the same old and in fact, I sometimes feel as though I'm playing Empire: Total War or something. Civilization was an anomoly that other games tried to rip off and couldn't re-create, but realizing that this was just released, bugs will work themselves out and mods will be created.

StarCraft II lived up to all of the hype. Civ 5, I'm sure, will get there. But don't for an instance try and tell us who would like to see improvements that we are "whiners" who should "go play Civ 4" like you're accusing us of being "climate change deniers." It's absolutely counter productive and makes you sound like an 18 year old who's been told "no" to that $20 hand out and the car keys.

If I want to complain, or make suggestions, then I will do so and I could frankly care less who doesn't like me for it.

The Civ V Zealots will shut up when you whining Zerglings do.

 

[Cashew]

People can criticize all they want, but it's getting really boring to read don't you think?

I mean, if you're going to complain, complain about something new or in a new way. Tired of the same old crap...

 

[Earthling]

I'm just laughing because I repeatedly predicted a large number of new players/fans/new posters to the forums (and nothing wrong with any of that of course) being frustrated by poor UI and gameplay designs that didn't have to be that way. And yes people were going to be upset about specific features/religions/civilizations or whatever but that was more understood at least.

Of course nearly everyone insisted their new UI and all the gameplay would be completely easy and intuitive, "no micromanagement" and so on, that "Earthling had to be wrong" and the game would be universally loved, wouldn't ever be any fans showing up complaining or disappointed or anything.

So it's that kinda smug satisfaction of being right, y'know. But then again I did not expect anything different out of such a game release, it was the people crazy optimistic nothing could ever go wrong who were kinda fooling themselves.

(And not to get started on things like the AI as far as real depth/success of the developers goes, but that at least has a lot more of wait and see and different opinions at least that are understandable. Some people wanted the AI to be different and while it was not likely feasible or what the devs intended or were able to do, that type of thing was opinions, rather than just incorrect ignoring UI/micromanagement problems)


Oh but TvZ really isn't still that balanced, and the campaign had some pretty wishy-washy storytelling.

 

[Drake L. Dragon]

Well, I don't know how you or anyone else may have gotten the impression that people for Civilization V were prohibiting criticisms of the game. In fact, from what I've seen, nobody serious has said for people such as yourself just to go play Civilization IV. What people do say, just like myself, is that the majority of criticisms here can't be taken seriously -- not that the people who do make those criticisms can't make the posts in the first place, because doing so is indeed within their rights. Freedom of speech and the press is what makes Capitalism work, but people who disagree with the criticisms are also within their rights of freedom of speech and the press in this privately owned community.

And sure, for my post in your Earth thread, you may have gotten the impression that I thought lowly of you or anyone else who supported your position, but the reality is that, like yourself, people like me will also feel strongly about the issue of a game that he or she may spend a week playing in just a year. What is not fair, however, is to claim that these people are saying that you can't even post something, because that was never their position to begin. There is a clear difference between being allowed to criticize and being allowed to make non-criticized criticisms. I said it beforehand, and I'll say it again. I defended the right of the Civ Fanatics to make criticisms about the demo release date the first day such information came out, but I nevertheless maintained the position that the outrage was unfounded and trivial, which is exactly what I find for most criticisms about Civilization V right now. You should always criticize a product that you buy, because you worked for that product, whether from a desk or the assembly line. However, if I just started criticizing my laptop for not having Microsoft Word 2007, even though the laptop never said anything about having such a feature, nor would it be logical to assume so, then would I not be criticized for saying so? Whether it be ridiculousness or cynicism in trying to find faults in a product, everyone has an obligation to the community, who dedicate her time to discussing every topic about Civilization, not to abuse that faith and trust by making topics without thinking it through.

Case in point:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9645110#post9645110

That thread was what I've been saying all along. The people who criticize the complainers don't want the complainers to stop complaining about what they dislike. What those people do want are the complainers not to make meaningless accusations about the Earth map doing something it was never intended nor expected to do, nor about how Wu's breasts are too big. (I'm going to be that that'll be one of the next complaints.) That's all they want.

 

[Crezth]

I'm just laughing because I repeatedly predicted a large number of new players/fans/new posters to the forums (and nothing wrong with any of that of course) being frustrated by poor UI and gameplay designs.

Of course nearly everyone insisted their new UI and all the gameplay would be completely easy and intuitive, "no micromanagement" and so on, that "Earthling had to be wrong" and the game would be universally loved, wouldn't ever be any fans showing up complaining or disappointed or anything.

So it's that kinda smug satisfaction of being right, y'know. But then again I did not expect anything different out of such a game release, it was the people crazy optimistic nothing could ever go wrong who were kinda fooling themselves.

(And not to get started on things like the AI as far as real depth/success of the developers goes, but that at least has a lot more of wait and see and different opinions at least that are understandable. Some people wanted the AI to be different and while it was not likely feasible or what the devs intended or were able to do, that type of thing was opinions, rather than just incorrect ignoring UI/micromanagement problems)

And I'm laughing because you're one of those strange individuals determined to be on the losing side of history. Strange.

Oh but TvZ really isn't still that balanced, and the campaign had some pretty wishy-washy storytelling.

TvZ is balanced when Zerg players learn Mutalisks don't work against Thors and build Infestors once in a blue moon.

Agree on the wishy-washy storytelling however.

 

[Kruelgor]

I'm not saying CiV 5 is perfect, but what I am saying is that the amount of modded content which will come to CiV 5 will be extraordinary and well worth the price of the game, considering you will actually be getting hundreds of games for the price of one.

 

[ahsingjai]

I choose super saver shipping on Amazon and haven't even gotten it in the mail yet so I thought I read the pros and cons. I expected this thread to at least criticize more points about the game but all this thread has was whining about not being able to whine without being flamed when there is barely anything that OP stated that was needed to be whine about.

No game is perfect. I can tell you even Starcraft II was not perfect. Even with the latest patch. Terran vs Zerg is still imbalanced unless the Zerg player has crazy micro/macro skills and have high skills, Zerg is probably still the most difficult race to play because of all the weakest. The game is definitely one of the most polished PC games I ever seen as of late, but who has the kind of budget that Blizzard has? No one.

2k has shown it's enormous support for Civ4, and I expect the same for Civ5, it's never instant patches right away, no company would be able to do that. Big fans will support it, and I will support this series to the end. I've played Civ2 since it came out, I'm only 25. So I grew up loving this series.

 

[Earthling]

TvZ is balanced when Zerg players learn Mutalisks don't work against Thors and build Infestors once in a blue moon.

No, it's not. Consistent evidence at top-level play still points to balance problems. Zergs have far too few viable openings and terran harass is nasty the way things stand (and it's been seen that way by Blizzard, they nerfed tanks recently for instance)

 

[TrustyTory]

For the record - I am playing Civ 5 as we speak and I do enjoy it!! I have some minor requests suited for my needs - like an Earth scenario with proper starting locations. (Did I mention an Earth scenario with historical starting locations yet?) I would just like to be heard and not be told to shut up by the people who would eat broken glass before they criticize a game that came out yesterday. It needs work - and it'll be a monster when they're done with it.

Yes, you came across harshly if I may say so. Perhaps I was sensitive yesterday. But it seemed to me like I was being told to shut up because my feeble mind did not "understand the big picture" and such. It's crazy!!

TvZ is going to be worked on - the Seige Tanks do a number on the lisks which, to my understanding, is being remedied.

 

[heliostellar]

Agree.. There's nothing more annoying than someone who just spent hard earned money and being unsatisifed with something... than someone else telling them to stfu and stop whining.

THIS! Seriously, this game is crappy as it is now. So, I should just let it go unmentioned? Wasn't Firaxis pumping this thing up with their Civ Addict viral videos? I think the meeting for Civ 5 addicts will be pretty quiet since this game has no elements to keep drawing you back. Isn't it ironic that Civ 5 is the cure to being addicted to Civ games?

 

[lemmy101]

See, the problem I have with all the haters is this:

How about a bit of tact? This is the single biggest thing I dislike about this forum since Civ 5's announcement. I work as a game developer (or rather worked, I went indie because I was sick of the commercial games industry) and let me tell you something. In my experience, when you work on a game, you read EVERYTHING. Every review, and thousands of forum posts. Firaxis people will read these forums, and surely out of respect for them and the wonderful years of gaming they've brought you, you could try and be a bit more tactful in expressing your disappointment?

I worked on a little ol' game called Driver 3. Yeah, it sucked. It also took 3 years of MASSIVELY HARD graft, where you end up alienating your friends and family due to working so many late nights, sleep deprived and stressed to hell. You're so close to the game you're working on you start to lose the ability to tell whether what you're working on is good or bad. You do your best and the game goes out there... despite better judgement you scour the internet daily, google alerts, refresh, refresh.... looking for some validation from the gamers for all your hard work... to make you know the toll it took was all worthwhile.

I still remember when I read the savage 5.4 IGN review one night on my PC. I was in tears. It cut really deep. I can't imagine what it would feel like to read some of the stuff that's said on this forum.

I know critisism is useful, and Firaxis will obviously count on user feedback both positive and negative but jesus. "Greg and Elizabeth have betrayed us all!" "I wish I could go back in time and give the UI designer an abortion" "Petition to have Elizabeth sacked!" To name but a few that spring to mind, but undoubtedly not the worst.

It makes me ashamed to be a Civ fan.

This is why we get pissed off with the haters. Sure you don't like it, but others do, and despite the fact that apparently Firaxis made something that doesn't quite fit your tastes it still is, objectively, an EXCELLENT game whether or not it's an excellent game which has gone in a direction you personally don't approve of. How about you show Firaxis, and all the people who put so much hard work and passion into the game, a little respect?

Obviously this doesn't apply to every one of the haters, but an upsettingly large proportion. The vile things I've read on this forum should never be read by someone who have hardly seen their girlfriend for the past six months because they've been slaving away doing a ton of (unpaid, almost definitely) overtime trying to make something you'll enjoy. It's not right. It makes us want to fight back hard against all the haters to show our support, and THIS is why the OP gets the reaction he does.

I guarantee your 'hard earned money' that you've put into this is not a dot compared to what they put into it. Sure you have rights. But where's their right not to be personally attacked and insulted over what are, at the end of the day, rather trivial and objective differences in opinion in game design? The difference between me and them is, they would get into trouble for responding to the hate, even though I bet every ounce of their beings want to respond and defend themselves. But in that situation you just can't, you just have to sit back and take it on the chin, 'don't let it get to you' and hope the next thing you read is positive.

So if I get a little defensive and annoyed when people make flippant hurtful remarks that go way beyond constructive criticism, or use unnecessarily violent and hate-filled language, this is why. I know how negative reactions to stuff you work on feels, and I've never read anything 1/10th as bad about my stuff than I've read on here about Civ and Firaxis. Yet some of the stuff I've worked on probably deserve such scorn a lot more than Firaxis, one of the best developers that gamers could possibly ask for, ever could.

'nuf said.

 

[Yakka2]

I know critisism is useful, and Firaxis will obviously count on user feedback both positive and negative but jesus. "Greg and Elizabeth have betrayed us all!" "I wish I could go back in time and give the UI designer an abortion" "Petition to have Elizabeth sacked!" To name but a few that spring to mind, but undoubtedly not the worst.

It makes me ashamed to be a Civ fan.

Totally agree. I even stopped lurking just to defend the game and show Firaxis that there are people who like what they've done. It's absolutely pathetic to hear how some people are reacting. 'Betrayal', 'Let down', 'Sold Out'. To think that the average gamer is more than 30 years old!!!

I really don't get the hyperbolic reactions. It's as if Civ V somehow deletes everyone's copy of Civ IV.

When Ferrari comes out with a new car do you gnash your teeth that it isn't the same as the one in your garage, but 'better'?

Do Matrix II and III make the first movie suck?

Everyone is allowed to criticize a game. But don't assume that what you want is what everyone wants.

 

[Drake L. Dragon]

See, the problem I have with all the haters is this:

How about a bit of tact? This is the single biggest thing I dislike about this forum since Civ 5's announcement. I work as a game developer (or rather worked, I went indie because I was sick of the commercial games industry) and let me tell you something. In my experience, when you work on a game, you read EVERYTHING. Every review, and thousands of forum posts. Firaxis people will read these forums, and surely out of respect for them and the wonderful years of gaming they've brought you, you could try and be a bit more tactful in expressing your disappointment?

I worked on a little ol' game called Driver 3. Yeah, it sucked. It also took 3 years of MASSIVELY HARD graft, where you end up alienating your friends and family due to working so many late nights, sleep deprived and stressed to hell. You're so close to the game you're working on you start to lose the ability to tell whether what you're working on is good or bad. You do your best and the game goes out there... despite better judgement you scour the internet daily, google alerts, refresh, refresh.... looking for some validation from the gamers for all your hard work... to make you know the toll it took was all worthwhile.

I still remember when I read the savage 5.4 IGN review one night on my PC. I was in tears. It cut really deep. I can't imagine what it would feel like to read some of the stuff that's said on this forum.

I know critisism is useful, and Firaxis will obviously count on user feedback both positive and negative but jesus. "Greg and Elizabeth have betrayed us all!" "I wish I could go back in time and give the UI designer an abortion" "Petition to have Elizabeth sacked!" To name but a few that spring to mind, but undoubtedly not the worst.

It makes me ashamed to be a Civ fan.

This is why we get pissed off with the haters. Sure you don't like it, but others do, and despite the fact that apparently Firaxis made something that doesn't quite fit your tastes it still is, objectively, an EXCELLENT game whether or not it's an excellent game which has gone in a direction you personally don't approve of. How about you show Firaxis, and all the people who put so much hard work and passion into the game, a little respect?

Obviously this doesn't apply to every one of the haters, but an upsettingly large proportion. The vile things I've read on this forum should never be read by someone who have hardly seen their girlfriend for the past six months because they've been slaving away doing a ton of (unpaid, almost definitely) overtime trying to make something you'll enjoy. It's not right. It makes us want to fight back hard against all the haters to show our support, and THIS is why the OP gets the reaction he does.

I guarantee your 'hard earned money' that you've put into this is not a dot compared to what they put into it. Sure you have rights. But where's their right not to be personally attacked and insulted over what are, at the end of the day, rather trivial and objective differences in opinion in game design? The difference between me and them is, they would get into trouble for responding to the hate, even though I bet every ounce of their beings want to respond and defend themselves. But in that situation you just can't, you just have to sit back and take it on the chin, 'don't let it get to you' and hope the next thing you read is positive.

So if I get a little defensive and annoyed when people make flippant hurtful remarks that go way beyond constructive criticism, or use unnecessarily violent and hate-filled language, this is why. I know how negative reactions to stuff you work on feels, and I've never read anything 1/10th as bad about my stuff than I've read on here about Civ and Firaxis. Yet some of the stuff I've worked on probably deserve such scorn a lot more than Firaxis, one of the best developers that gamers could possibly ask for, ever could.

'nuf said.

I wish I could just put this post in the announcements section, so that everyone here will see it.