Persona Spotlight: Cleopatra (Ptolemaic)

[pokiehl]

Yeah despite everything, Civ6 is probably the most nuanced portrayal in a videogame ever of Cleopatra, even if they couldn't drop the egyptian wig

How is it a nuanced portrayal? I’m not really sure how a portrayal of any leader in this game be considered nuanced. This game has no narrative; it doesn’t attempt to tell any particular story.

Cleopatra’s dialogue and agenda, like those of any other leader, reference what she’s famously known for, with a huge dose of lightheartedness. Her ability isn’t exactly some elegant reference to anything particular with her either; it’s just a vague nod to the role of Roman Egypt as a breadbasket province of the empire.

I guess what I’m getting at is, playing as or against Cleopatra in this game didn’t teach me anything new about her. I don’t think that was the aim of the game, at any rate.

I’m not saying Civ 6 portrays anything offensively, but I certainly don’t think there’s enough depth to consider anything in this series nuanced. It’s just not a part of how the player engages with the game.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

It could say that if all Antiquity feminine leaders were also as seductive as Cleopatra.

But since Dido, Ba Trieu, Amanitore or Gorgo don't look particularly "seductive", I think it's less a question of misogyny rather than a distorted (and fantasy) version of Cleopatra specifically.

Dido should also be seductive, as she had seduced Aeneas in Virgil's epic The Aenid

 

[Zaarin]

Cleopatra was a brilliant and well-educated woman. She was said to have been able to speak somewhere in the ballpark of 10 languages. She was said to be witty and a charming conversationalist. And she was second in line to steer a ship that was already sinking. She delayed the sinking a little by lashing her star first to Julius Caesar and then to Marc Antony, and for what it's worth it worked--Egypt didn't die before she did (assuming the story of her suicide is true, which...grain of salt and all that). (One might ask why she didn't try Octavian instead of Antony since he was always the favored winner, but that wasn't an option--he loathed her. It was Antony or nothing.) So for Cleopatra seduction was a tool--a tool to obtain and keep power and a tool to keep her crumbling state afloat a few more years. (We also have to bear in mind that virtually everything we know about Cleopatra comes from Roman authors who wrote well after she was dead. Between her being an enemy of the Empire and a woman, we can safely assume they were not even trying to be objective.)

Dido should also be seductive, as she had seduced Aeneas in Virgil's epic The Aenid

Better idea: Virgil and his Augustan propaganda should be completely ignored in portraying Dido. Also, even in The Aenead, Dido doesn't seduce Aeneas; he falls in love with her. She simply tries to convince him to stay in Carthage instead of leaving to found Rome.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Cleopatra was a brilliant and well-educated woman. She was said to have been able to speak somewhere in the ballpark of 10 languages. She was said to be witty and a charming conversationalist. And she was second in line to steer a ship that was already sinking. She delayed the sinking a little by lashing her star first to Julius Caesar and then to Marc Antony, and for what it's worth it worked--Egypt didn't die before she did (assuming the story of her suicide is true, which...grain of salt and all that). (One might ask why she didn't try Octavian instead of Antony since he was always the favored winner, but that wasn't an option--he loathed her. It was Antony or nothing.) So for Cleopatra seduction was a tool--a tool to obtain and keep power and a tool to keep her crumbling state afloat a few more years. (We also have to bear in mind that virtually everything we know about Cleopatra comes from Roman authors who wrote well after she was dead. Between her being an enemy of the Empire and a woman, we can safely assume they were not even trying to be objective.)


Better idea: Virgil and his Augustan propaganda should be completely ignored in portraying Dido. Also, even in The Aenead, Dido doesn't seduce Aeneas; he falls in love with her. She simply tries to convince him to stay in Carthage instead of leaving to found Rome.

Better idea: Cleopatra didn't kill herself - Augustus killed her!




Dido could just act like a nice person, a loving lady and one that YOU want to fall in love with (without seduction, leave that to Cleopatra).

 

[Zaarin]

Better idea: Cleopatra didn't kill herself - Augustus killed her!

Cleopatra probably did kill herself; Augustus had no motive to kill her--he wanted her for his triumph. The dubious part is that she committed suicide via snake for any number of reasons--e.g., Egyptian cobras are heavy snakes that would not be easy to smuggle in a basket of fruit and death-by-cobra-bite would in fact be quite painful, contrary to the story.

Dido could just act like a nice person, a loving lady and one that YOU want to fall in love with (without seduction, leave that to Cleopatra).

She's fine the way she is now, except for speaking accented Israeli Hebrew. (Seriously, Firaxis, I will write dialogue for you. Hit me up. )

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Cleopatra probably did kill herself; Augustus had no motive to kill her--he wanted her for his triumph. The dubious part is that she committed suicide via snake for any number of reasons--e.g., Egyptian cobras are heavy snakes that would not be easy to smuggle in a basket of fruit and death-by-cobra-bite would in fact be quite painful, contrary to the story.


She's fine the way she is now, except for speaking accented Israeli Hebrew. (Seriously, Firaxis, I will write dialogue for you. Hit me up. )

Hey, a lot of us on the forums could be people that Firaxis could use for their next game

 

[Zaarin]

Just the fact that Tamar is in the game shows that Firaxis pays us some attention.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Just the fact that Tamar is in the game shows that Firaxis pays us some attention.

Who's next to get memed in?

 

[Zaarin]

Have you considered it might be Shilhak-Inshushinak I of Elam?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Who's next to get memed in?

I vote for Yusef ibn Tashfin

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Have you considered it might be Shilhak-Inshushinak I of Elam?

Cool! I was considering someone for the Hebrews (most likely Solomon, as I love Ecclesiastes and Proverbs), Burma, or OHIO.
Maybe Shutruk-Nakhunte because of the movie The Emperor's Club.
#OhioforCivilizationVII

 

[Zaarin]

Maybe Shutruk-Nakhunte because of the movie The Emperor's Club.

Shutruk-Nahhunte is a good choice, too, and you could probably come up with a fun ability just based on his theft of the Victory Stele of Naram-Sin.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Shutruk-Nahhunte is a good choice, too, and you could probably come up with a fun ability just based on his theft of the Victory Stele of Naram-Sin.

I only know him from The Emperor's Club, but he does sound cool. I mean, if VII is going to have a theme for leaders, I'd like to see a Civilization VII based on leaders with wacky stories.

This could mean that Teddy Roosevelt, Timur, Caligula, Zhang Zongchang (sorry, his story is really funny and interesting), Ivan IV Grozny, Henry VIII, Charles VII, and many others can join! Heck, Justinian's dream for a returned Rome and the arduous climb that Wu Zetian had to take to become empress of all China could also give them slots!

 

[bbbt]

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Theodora given that I'd say her and Catherine were portrayed the most flirtatiously in Civ 5.

I believe in actuality Elisabeth was reputed to also use flirtatiousness in a lot of her diplomacy.

Tho this all might be gendered terms. Call it w lot of great diplomatic leaders would've been charismatic and skilled at making the person they were talking to feel special so to speak.

But yeah I dunno that any of the male leaders are portrayed quite as similarly, shirtless as half of them are. All the more reason to bring in Benjamin Franklin to lead the US

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Who's next to get memed in?

Yongle.

 

[Zaarin]

I believe in actuality Elisabeth was reputed to also use flirtatiousness in a lot of her diplomacy.

Elizabeth I was less flirtatious (though she could certainly be so when she wanted to be) and more let it known that she was available for marriage...without ever following through on the marriage. She was not the only leader to do so, but being a woman gave her an advantage here because the man who married her could become king of England. (Incidentally, that's why Jadwiga was crowned king of Poland--to make it clear to suitors that the crown stayed with her.) Elizabeth I knew this full well, which can safely be said to be the reason she never married.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Theodora

I'm more interested to see what they do with her mechanically--can she save Byzantium from being such a boring domination civ? (I presume they portrayed her as sensual--flirtatious isn't really the right word--because of her history as a courtesan, but TBH I'd prefer they focused more on her reputation for piety and theological partisanship in Cvi6.)

 

[Futumch]

Who's next to get memed in?

I'd already suggested on the "Worst Leaders of all" thread to have Admiral General President Prime Minister Aladeen of Wadiya. I mean, if you're going to have a sprinkling of fictitious elements, you may as well go the whole hog. Sacha Baron Cohen might even do the voice acting! (I may have spelled his name incorrectly).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm more interested to see what they do with her mechanically--can she save Byzantium from being such a boring domination civ? (I presume they portrayed her as sensual--flirtatious isn't really the right word--because of her history as a courtesan, but TBH I'd prefer they focused more on her reputation for piety and theological partisanship in Cvi6.)

The intro quote seems to suggest that she'll be into rebuilding Constantinople after the Nika riots. That would go along with the whole builder thing, but who knows?

 

[SecretWeapon]

How is it a nuanced portrayal? I’m not really sure how a portrayal of any leader in this game be considered nuanced. This game has no narrative; it doesn’t attempt to tell any particular story.

Cleopatra’s dialogue and agenda, like those of any other leader, reference what she’s famously known for, with a huge dose of lightheartedness. Her ability isn’t exactly some elegant reference to anything particular with her either; it’s just a vague nod to the role of Roman Egypt as a breadbasket province of the empire.

I guess what I’m getting at is, playing as or against Cleopatra in this game didn’t teach me anything new about her. I don’t think that was the aim of the game, at any rate.

I’m not saying Civ 6 portrays anything offensively, but I certainly don’t think there’s enough depth to consider anything in this series nuanced. It’s just not a part of how the player engages with the game.

My post is more a comment on the other videogame portrayals being absolutely terrible than Civ6's being brilliant, in other words, the bar is ridiculously low.

If she shows up in videogames, she's generally eyecandy (and oddly recurrent in slot games...). When she does get some characterization it's generally mostly about her being young and sultry.

I consider Civ6 portrayal better because at least bothers with the "Egypt as breadbasket" thing, Cleopatra is forward about using other rulers to maintain her own regime (rather than Cleo just being horny and enthralling people with her horny power) and her face actually looks like (a cartoony version) of the one from busts, rather than a random mixed race (or white anglosaxon) hottie. While none of the personas got rid of the wig, at least Queen of the Nile has greek patterns in her necklace and clothes while Ptolomeic is obviously dressed in something greekish. Oh and she's also looks like she's in her 30s (and might be around that, given her comment about Generals being part of her lovers)

Again, it's not much, but the bar is so low it's about to fall into the Earth's core

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Agenda - Royal Lands - Prefers Civs with high food output.