And again, not every civ has to be the "best" civ, or be super-OP. If the civ gives interesting bonuses that yields a fun and different play-style, that's a bonus in my books. Phoenecia certainly has some potential for that. I don't think they're going to be my #1 civ, but they at least offer a slightly different style to the other naval powers.
Exactly. From what we've seen the civs for the expansion are going to be mostly mid tier with any civ with major advantages like Maori or Mali having some serious drawbacks to balance them. I'd rather that than have more OP civs.
I was amused that that video analyzing Phoenicia gave the Cree as an example of a weak civ and seemed to think having the eureka for writing was one of their better abilities.
I'm sure it was fun to put together and read, but it can't compare civ against civ with no actual information on how all other civs are being tweaked, rescaled etc.
Mystic Meg probably has something just as reliable.
Thinking some more, I really do think Phoenicia will be strong and fun.
Early game. It’s true Dido doesn’t get a settler production bonus out of the gate. But the 100% loyalty will be powerful early, because you can aggressively forward settled to grab the best land or block out areas you want to expand to. That’s big - often you have to settle reasonably close to your capital early otherwise you can be over stretched. For Dido, just grab whatever land you need.
Getting Harbours unlocked will be a bit of a pain. With England I usually delay getting Harbours a little, but might be worth be-lining with Dido. The danger is that you’re then not pushing other techs but I don’t think that will be such an issue for Dido. Because once you have your Harbour up, you’ll be able to really spam settlers. And your settlers are faster and better and again don’t worry about adverse loyalty.
You should be able to then get up your Government Plaza (with your production boost) and a Tier 1 building. That’ll boost yields and give you strong synergies if you grab ancestral hall (even more settlers and still no cares about loyalty). Also a quick extra Governor title. But now you also have extra trade routes to play with. Very nice. And if you put your GP is a strong city, then it’ll be very very powerful because you get half price districts in this city. You can even stack them around your GP, so more yields to help pay for the detour to Harbours.
So, a pretty strong start. The only worry will be having a weak coastal start like England does, so there will be a fair wack of RNG. But even then, being able to move your Cap might help mitigate that by letting you move your Cap to a more optimal location.
Mid game. So, strong set up. Now what? Well, you can explore and expand easily using your move capital ability to help to boost loyalty but also give at least one new city extra housing and yields (your initial cities should have stable loyalty by now, so you can move your Cap). You might want to grab the Autocracy Legacy Card to make your moving Cap even more powerful. You still have extra trade routes via your GP and can get more quickly via your half price Harbour. You can also protect your trade routes. Really solid.
There will probably be some silly fun using your moving capital to flip Foreign cities or changing your home continent to maximise all the colonial cards. You can also use your loyalty ability to create beachheads for war on foreign continents. Lots of fun strategies.
...
...so, as I’ve said already, how are people underwhelmed? It’s a Civ really focused on early expansion and trade. All its abilities synergise really well. And you’ll be able to play with loyalty and colonial cities in really unique ways.
Think of it this way. Dido basically gets two unique districts. The Cothon (half price, with some production bonuses and a healing thingy), and a Unique Government Plaza (almost half price, with some production bonuses and extra trade routes).
I mean, people were saying Nerfed England was still okay or good because it had at least a half price Harbour. And the RND didn’t even really give you much of a boost unless you were on another continent!
Honestly. Except that Phoenicia doesn’t get a unique luxe (which might have been cool, but possible OP given you could sell it early), I really think people have got a Civ that “is” Phoenicia and does have unique gameplay.
The new Civs, Phoenicia included, are really really well designed. GS is looking absolutely dope.
And yes. It’s taken a few months. But I am back on the hype train baby. Toot toot kids.
The Cothon means you can get your trade online more quickly than others. The Settler bonus means you can get more cities than others. The loyalty bonus means you can forward settle for even more cities.
With +4 guaranteed additional trade routes and all the trade routes from your Cothons, you'll basically be swimming in trade routes.
Just to be completely Heretical here, but, and this may come as a shock, not all of us care about finding a 'best' strategy with a 'best' Civ to win on Diety in the least number of turns.
In fact, I dare say I play more games either trying to recreate a historical look to the Civ or playing against the 'Uniques' or 'power' the game gives the civ.
Examples:
One of my most fun games was playing Temujin and Never Declaring War. On a Pangaea Map, I built a tangle of Trade Routes, out-spent everyone, kept a big enough army that no one dared attack me (well, a couple tried: I killed their armies, took one capital and some cities and then gave them back) and ended up with a completely Counter-historical Cultural Victory with a Mongolia full of National Parks and Seaside Resorts. Visit Sunny Mongolia! Gobi Beach Resorts!
Every time I play England, I always try to build as many Battleships as all the other Civs combined: because that was what Great Britain did from 1890 to 1920 - and believe me, that doesn't contribute much to any victory condition on a Pangaea Map!
The only Religious Victory I ever even tried to win was with Scythia - when I found out that their Apostles also heal after they destroy a unit, and wiped out a flood of Missionaries with 2 Apostles and no Gurus - just kept healing them back up after they killed a Missionary, then went on to convert everything in sight. Ironically, the point of that game was to disband all the early Slingers and Warriors and build an army entirely of Mounted Units. Effective? Not particularly, but so much fun to sweep in and pillage Every Single Tile in a city radius in a single turn, then swarm back into the steppes again and do it again to the next city . . .
So, GS looks to have a bunch of really Fun Cvs to play: see how long I can wander the water as Maori before I settle down, see just how many Trade Routes how soon I can cover the map with as Phoenicia or Mali, and maybe even try Sweden as a Conquering Horde with a minimum number of cities to replicate their Resource-Light Military Might under Charles XII.
Life's too short to play for merely winning as soon as possible . . .
Model looks amazing, colors look amazing, Cothon looks amazing, Bireme looks like the boat I've been waiting for (i.e. a Longship connected to a civ with other boni. Here's hoping they buff ya, Norway!) and all in all this is the one I've been waiting for. Sad that I have to wait another 2.5 weeks.
I mean this thread has literally been all over the place, between “best waifu broken civ” to “literally unplayable”, and half the fun is debating it.
Until the game is out, all we can do is speculate on how strong the Civ is based on Rise and Fall mechanic.
My stance remains that I think she can be quite powerful with the right strategy and supporting her core abilities with outside support, and I’ve yet to see anything to dissuade me from this.
She’s similar to the Inca and the Cree, where they get bonuses to creating an infrastructure as opposed to overt bonuses, which I feel like are possibly more popular (at least from a cursory reading of the forums here).
It’s hard to debate her merits, or lack of, based on “she’s trash, cuz reasons” though
Just to be completely Heretical here, but, and this may come as a shock, not all of us care about finding a 'best' strategy with a 'best' Civ to win on Diety in the least number of turns.
In fact, I dare say I play more games either trying to recreate a historical look to the Civ or playing against the 'Uniques' or 'power' the game gives the civ.. .
With all the changes coming in GS (most notably the chopping overflow and the naval situation) the entire meta is about to shift yet people still think that basic yields are the only way to win.
So there's little authority on where any civilization stands on an arbitrary tier list.
The best part is that Phoenicia is uniquely suited to be a Free Inquiry powerhouse, so there's your Korea-tier science slingshot that deity-only players like.
Okay, finally made it through the thread to date. My thoughts:
Initially, mild disappointment. I wanted a unique luxury (or luxuries) (well implemented) and a science bonus beyond the writing boost.
But after reading all the analysis about how well this civ can expand, I'm quite looking forward to this one, as I like to build lots of cities. And the loyalty and capital shifting stuff should be interesting.
The Cothon, bireme, and extra trade routes look great. Very nice leader model as well. (She might have become my avatar if Christina hasn't shown up first. Maybe in another year.)
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