[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[Laurana Kanan]

I don't like the bireme because you lose its trade route protection bonus as soon as you upgrade it. It's going to be barely usable in that capacity.

We don't know if they may have reworked upgrades.

Unfortunately, the way unit modifiers work, I don't see how UUs would be able to keep their special abilities upon upgrade without significant coding changes.

 

[ferretbacon]

Ironically, the AI seems to do pretty well with Georgia. At least in my experience. Maybe because of the agenda to build 3 tiers of walls.

Maybe the AI doing well with it convinced Firaxis that it is fine (they probably run hundreds of AI battle royales).

Not sure what possessed me to do it, but I rolled Georgia on my first R&F playthrough. I remember they were surprisingly powerful. I think it was mostly due to the perpetual Golden Age, plus the fact that I had key city states on absolute lock down. The UU and UI (especially the UI) are both pretty lame, but Georgia can be fun.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Unfortunately, the way unit modifiers work, I don't see how UUs would be able to keep their special abilities upon upgrade without significant coding changes.

Plus it would make early UUs even better than they are now compared to the later ones.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

3. (Bonus!) Enough Amenities to sustain all those cities. Getting new luxuries is not guaranteed, especially if you are constrained by coastal settlement. If only Phoenicia had some sort of amenity bonus.....maybe some kind of exclusive luxury resource or something, I don't know. Firaxis managed to dig out Minas Geraes for Brazil, surely they could find something fitting for Phoenicia!

NO. Bad.

I need them to keep design space open for Swahili dammit.

 

[Ziad]

The point has never been one about whether or not Harbors are good - they're fine. The point is that Phoenicia's Harbors are a rather marginal upgrade on anyone else's. They have a highly timing-dependent bonus to settlers which may as well not exist past the early game

You still trying to frame their snowballing potential as a negative?

they have bonus production to generally unattractive units (which is not likely to change - even in Civ V, where coastal cities were optimal, the combination of map generation, game mechanics and AI disinterest in the naval game made maintaining a large navy largely useless) and healing which is only situationally useful for the same reason.

This isn't Civ5. Coastal cities in Civ5 were optimal due to trade route stacking and you unlocked them via techs so you never needed to expand. Just needed 1 coastal city... trade routes are now locked behind building districts.... in many cities.

Navy isn't situational. It's as important as land armies when you only care about coast.

Healing is not situational. It basically allows you to keep your navies fully healed both defensively and offensively. If you use your navy, you will use the healing. And you will use your navy.

To most intents and purposes Phoenicia just gets cheaper Harbors - basically the same bonus as England without the actual bonuses the Dockyard provides

Dockyard has +1 movement and +2 admiral points... and +2 gold and 4 loyalty if and only if it's on a separate continent. How is +50% production to all naval units and settlers insignificant?

The point is, we've had a full expansion of Free Inquiry with England's cheap Harbors - and yet somehow no one is calling England a "powerhouse" because of that bonus. If it hasn't worked for that civ, it's not clear how an identical bonus will be any better for Phoenicia, who aren't any better at setting up or exploiting it than the English are. They get no benefits that increase their ability to get Golden Ages. It's not a case of comparing two civs with similar abilities, even to the extent of Norway - it's a case of two civs having exactly identical abilities and yet you expect one of them to make use of a system the other has not noticeably benefitted from.

Because England does not have the ancient/classical settling bonuses, nor does it have ancient era uniques other than the dockyard. It's more difficult to get those early game golden ages without investing in it.

Phoenicia doesn't need as much early game investment to get those GAs, and it does it while just doing what it's supposed to.

You can stop saying this as well. A 20% bonus to the first settler that gets progressively worse the more settlers you build and takes a Harbor-sized investment to get there is, as previously discussed, not "pumping out cities like no other". It's a minor perk.

Where did you get 20% from? Your first settler likely won't have any bonus at all or even your third. That's fine. You still want core cities

The bonus is 50% bonus to all settlers in a city with a Cothon. It takes a half-priced Harbor to get there... if you built a Government Plaza even less...probably would take like 3 turns.

And how does it get progressively worse? By virtue of being a percent modifier it can never get worse. 50% is 50%. If it takes you 10 turns to build a settler or 30, your production will get multiplied by 50% so it'll take you two thirds of the time compared to anyone else assuming similar production values

And ultimately you can settle unsettled land in other continents that few others can by virtue of moving your capital once your core is established and then forward settle there.

And unless all civs are wide, all civs take colonization policies, and all civs invest in ancestral halls.... you are severely overestimating just how much competition Phoenicia will have.

 

[Ziad]

3. (Bonus!) Enough Amenities to sustain all those cities. Getting new luxuries is not guaranteed, especially if you are constrained by coastal settlement. If only Phoenicia had some sort of amenity bonus.....maybe some kind of exclusive luxury resource or something, I don't know. Firaxis managed to dig out Minas Geraes for Brazil, surely they could find something fitting for Phoenicia!

AFAIK luxuries are divided based on continents. Given your proclivity towards settling everywhere, it'll happen naturally.

That being said it would have been nice to have a Tyrian Purple reference in amenity somewhere just to make it a bit easier.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The more civs that have naval UUs, the more likely AI civs will build naval units and the more likely there is to have multiple civs with naval UUs in any given game.

So the value of a navy, and of naval UUs goes up for each naval civ in the game.

 

[acluewithout]

AFAIK luxuries are divided based on continents. Given your proclivity towards settling everywhere, it'll happen naturally.

That being said it would have been nice to have a Tyrian Purple reference in amenity somewhere just to make it a bit easier.

They certainly don’t need a unique luxe for balance. It’s basically just the same as the writing boost - purely cosmetic or flavour.

That said. I’m sure if we bugged FXS enough they could add a unique amenity. They seem pretty responsive lately, and other than the art asset, it wouldn’t be hard to do.

I think a free unique amenity is potentially OP, but perhaps wouldn’t be too nuts if it was locked behind a tech or civic. How do people see this working exactly? Do they just get one or two?

 

[Ziad]

Maybe locked behind building two districts.

 

[Gamling80]

It's a shame we won't get a militaristic Carthage civ with war elephants that can cross mountains. That would have been very cool.

They are saving the elephants for the second leader Hannibal.

Its interesting that most civs got a secondary choice as their first leader. It is easy for Firaxis to sell more leaders now. Napoleon or Charles the great for France, Karl the XII for Sweden etc. I think they will expand this game for a longer period. They are able now with the 64 bit engine. We might get 4 expansions for this game. Most civs can be made quite different with a new leader with a couple of abilities of their own.

 

[Leathaface]

Does Dido get a unique Government Plaza?

 

[acluewithout]

They are saving the elephants for the second leader Hannibal.

Its interesting that most civs got a secondary choice as their first leader. It is easy for Firaxis to sell more leaders now. Napoleon or Charles the great for France, Karl the XII for Sweden etc. I think they will expand this game for a longer period. They are able now with the 64 bit engine. We might get 4 expansions for this game. Most civs can be made quite different with a new leader with a couple of abilities of their own.

I’d had this thought too. Let’s FXS (and players if you’re okay spending the money) get it both ways - lots of new and different leaders but also you get the obvious (but popular) ones too.

 

[acluewithout]

Does Dido get a unique Government Plaza?

No. But she has bonuses which make it like a unique district - reduced cost plus additional buffs (Trade Routes, production bonuses for other districts in that city).

It’s a really cool idea.

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

I'm surprised anyone is underwhelmed, I think perhaps we have been spoilt by the generally excellent civ design for GS. All in all they've done a much better job of giving each civ a distinct flavour and a few of them will encourage a different approach to the game, including Phoenicia.

I'm still hoping for some indication of significant changes made to vanilla civs, a la England.

 

[Lord Lakely]

No. But she has bonuses which make it like a unique district - reduced cost plus additional buffs (Trade Routes, production bonuses for other districts in that city).

It’s a really cool idea.

The Goverment Plaza is half-price forr everyone.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Hmm I dont know if someone mentioned this, but their ability to change your capital and Colonial Taxes policy card have some potential. +10% production and +25% gold in your best and developed cities is significant.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I'm surprised anyone is underwhelmed, I think perhaps we have been spoilt by the generally excellent civ design for GS. All in all they've done a much better job of giving each civ a distinct flavour and a few of them will encourage a different approach to the game, including Phoenicia.

I'm still hoping for some indication of significant changes made to vanilla civs, a la England.

The think anyone initially disappointed is either the victim of overhype and a lengthy period of knowing she is in the game before she’s revealed, and speculation of what her abilities could be.

Additionally, I think they could have possibly announced the Maori last because they have raised the expectations for how Civs change the game quite considerably. I suspect if Dido came first, she would have seen way more revolutionary.

It doesn’t help that the analysis videos around her all centre around her viability for Deity wins on any map, and it’s undeniable that other civs can do this better. However, Deity wins are not my primary concern because of how skewed they are by domination (or being Korea).

I love the debate and discussion that comes around with a new Civ. What I dislike intensely is when people give their opinion as fact. “she’s trash tier because she only has 4 trade routes and she doesn’t have 5 settlers when she spawns”. Again, a Civs quality is wholly subjective on whatever you want to get out of the game.

I love Civs that accurately represent the People they represent, and I like Civs that have abilities that promote cute little interplay’s with the current systems. In that respect, Dido is a B, possibly A, Civ for me at a first glance.

If you want to win Deity by turn 100, or she isn’t hitting the mark for you because she doesn’t promote a play style you like, that’s cool too. But “in my opinion, Dido isn’t great because...”, is far more constructive than hyperbolic “trash, crap, Georgia tier”

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

The think anyone initially disappointed is either the victim of overhype and a lengthy period of knowing she is in the game before she’s revealed, and speculation of what her abilities could be.

Additionally, I think they could have possibly announced the Maori last because they have raised the expectations for how Civs change the game quite considerably. I suspect if Dido came first, she would have seen way more revolutionary.

It doesn’t help that the analysis videos around her all centre around her viability for Deity wins on any map, and it’s undeniable that other civs can do this better. However, Deity wins are not my primary concern because of how skewed they are by domination (or being Korea).

I love the debate and discussion that comes around with a new Civ. What I dislike intensely is when people give their opinion as fact. “she’s trash tier because she only has 4 trade routes and she doesn’t have 5 settlers when she spawns”. Again, a Civs quality is wholly subjective on whatever you want to get out of the game.

I love Civs that accurately represent the People they represent, and I like Civs that have abilities that promote cute little interplay’s with the current systems. In that respect, Dido is a B, possibly A, Civ for me at a first glance.

If you want to win Deity by turn 100, or she isn’t hitting the mark for you because she doesn’t promote a play style you like, that’s cool too. But “in my opinion, Dido isn’t great because...”, is far more constructive than hyperbolic “trash, crap, Georgia tier”

Well said, I agree with all of that.

I suppose the holy grail is a suite of 40-50 civs that are all distinct and interesting representations of the culture but are also well balanced for the deity players, however that is surely very difficult to achieve.

 

[Proclo]

Yeah, I have to remember that "continents" gamewise isn't the same as continents in RL.

Well, they did improved writting but they didn't invent it. So I see plausible that they just get the Eureka. What I don't really understand is why, having revolutionised shipbuilding and celestial navigation how they did, they won't be getting at least the Eurekas for those 2 techs. I know, I know, the Maori are getting these 2 buffs, based on a legend by the way, and it would be redundant. But it feels unjust for me.

Even more if you have in mind that the rest of Phoenicia's abilities, although quite interesting and unique, are quite underwhelming:

Nubia, for example, can have the same district building speed buff (well not quite, 40% vs 50%) with just an improvement and in ALL its cities.

The birreme's trade route protection, is mostly unuseful, because for the time you will get them, how many trade routes will you have to defend? One two? Maybe three? For the time you'll have the production to protect those routes the birremes will completly be obsolete.

Imho, the presence of Mali and the Maori in GS have been fatal for Phoenicia, which should have been a perfect mixture between the two.

Now we are in the hands of our beloved Modders to make things right.

 

[IvoryPavane]

Well, they did improved writting but they didn't invent it. So I see plausible that they just get the Eureka. What I don't really understand is why, having revolutionised shipbuilding and celestial navigation how they did, they won't be getting at least the Eurekas for those 2 techs. I know, I know, the Maori are getting these 2 buffs, based on a legend by the way, and it would be redundant. But it feels unjust for me.

Even more if you have in mind that the rest of Phoenicia's abilities, although quite interesting and unique, are quite underwhelming:

Nubia, for example, can have the same district building speed buff (well not quite, 40% vs 50%) with just an improvement and in ALL its cities.

The birreme's trade route protection, is mostly unuseful, because for the time you will get them, how many trade routes will you have to defend? One two? Maybe three? For the time you'll have the production to protect those routes the birremes will completly be obsolete.

Imho, the presence of Mali and the Maori in GS have been fatal for Phoenicia, which should have been a perfect mixture between the two.

Now we are in the hands of our beloved Modders to make things right.

The comparison to Nubia has been brought up a lot and I don’t quite buy it. I think the reason she has the 40% buff next to her unique improvement is because Desert tiles are suboptimal. (Coastal tiles were in R&F, but this may/likely change in GS so we will need to wait and see for that one.) Otherwise, it’s a flat 20% which is great, but not game changing. Also, Nubia is stronger than 90% of other Civs so it’s a comparison most Civs would struggle with

I think Dido has a set of skills that all knit together nicely but she doesn’t have one unique thing that you can point to and say “omg”. (As an example, The Netherlands has Grote Riviern which is great, and Radio Oranje, which is... less so. Whereas I don’t think any of Didos abilities are bad and I like how they synergise).

She also doesn’t have the drawbacks that come with the Mali and Maori, so she not quite as unique or as overtly powerful, but I don’t think it’s fatal (personally)