Played through a post patch game, thoughts

Becephalus

King
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
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I just played through a great post patch game some thoughts:

Love the changes overall.
The diplomacy still needs a tiny bit of balancing but it is working a lot better.

Balance Issues/Concerns:
Seaport is way too expensive for what it does. Some of the costs of the other buildings/wonders are a bit off.

The musket mechanized infantry era still flies by too fast and needs some pacing work. I am on a warrior army forever (125 turns), then a pikemen army forever (125 turns), then it seems like muskets for 25 turns, rifles for 25 turns, infantry for 25 turns, and mech infantry (25 turns). And this is on epic.. I realize in real life tech progressed more quickly recently, but that has always been handled by having the later turns be short time periods. In ciV the industrial/early modern era still seems rushed to me.

Why would you ever liberate a Civ? They betray you fairly quickly and you receive so little benefit from it. Not saying them betraying you isn't realistic, but right now there are just no benefits.

All the strategic resources are a bit too plentiful. I was even playing with 12/24 on a large map, and by the late medieval era you just rarely run out of anything. It seems odd my military can conceivably cripple in one era from not having access to horse or iron, but in the next era I can use rifles and cannon without resources to make sure I am large enough I never have resource shortages again. Maybe make more units require resources and some require 2 resources? In compensation reduce their build cost a bit to make them more valuable.

Industrial revolution isn't discontinuous enough. Production should be booming and population growth increasing really quickly. I might make hopitals stronger or cheaper so they get built more quickly, and factories should provide more production at that cost +8?.
 
:agree: There is no resource land unit in Pre-industrial era except cavalry units. I think rifles should require sulphur or something & some new unit should be introduced as a non-resource unit. And it would be interesting to see more usage of oil in post industrial era. Also I would love to see scouts upgrading into explorers.
I agree that some buildings are too useless like factories & seaport and some Wonders are too powerful like GL.
 
Following the latest patch, I am in the middle of the first Civ5 game I have played for months. Most enjoyable it is too. I agree with pretty much all the points made above, though I don’t mind not having explorers. I quite enjoy the map not being completely revealed until late in the game.

One thing I would add though: they have got to do something about naval tactics. I am so far behind Japan that I shouldn’t be able to hold him off during our current war. But it’s easy, since each turn as he sends his army across a narrow strip of sea from his island to mine I simply send my frigate and two caravels over them. I have literally destroyed dozens of riflemen and cannons by doing this.
He has built the odd carvel and frigate himself which I chase/destroy with my cannon and city bombardment then its back to me ramming his transporting army to the bottom of the sea.

With the improvement to the land tactical AI, something has to be done about naval tactics, or change the rules to allow embarked units to occupy the same space as ships.
 
Industrial revolution isn't discontinuous enough. Production should be booming and population growth increasing really quickly. I might make hopitals stronger or cheaper so they get built more quickly, and factories should provide more production at that cost +8?.

I agree with that. Industrial revolution should really be a big breakpoint in the game, and it is less now. You really shouldn't be able to compete unless you run factories. I remember in Civ1 that getting railroads was massive, but in Civ5 that is all a bit bland.
 
The patch did nothing for me. Changing a resource from +5 happiness to+ 4 happiness must has taken all of 5 seconds. Fix the AI. These constant number tweeks only mess up strategies. Poor excuse of a patch. Plenty of things to add to the game, changing a 4 to a 5 does nothing for me
 
rifling should require chemistry...

ANd replecable parts should require rifling

Balance problem solved...

About the liberate isue i agree . A Civ still dont get it they should be thanxfull at you. Seriously the only advantage you get is a UN vote but you get a diplomatic penalty that doenst seam right...

BTW did anyone noticed if you play a team game your teammate AI is mad at you? whaha this diplomacy fails...
 
I think muskets in particular go by too fast. I know that in real life there was only a short period in which muskets were really useful, but it just seems so wasteful to build them. Especially when you can just wait and upgrade your experienced LS and pikes to rifles. I don't think I have ever built a musketman.
 
The only times I build muskets are when I have a musket-based UU which carries promotions over (sorry, France). Janissary or Minuteman Riflemen are, well, terrifying.
 
The problem with muskets is that the best tech strategy requires you to grab education first. So by the time you get gunpowder your tech rate is rockin' and you're about to get a GS, meaning that you are just one tech away from rifling. I've tried beelining Gunpowder with US, Spain, or France and it just never happens. The best way would probably be NC first, then GL and liberty finisher for an early double bulb of steel+gunpowder. Then you just backtrack for a late education/slow march to rifling. Takes a lot of luck, however, and it's certainly unreasonable to shoot for it on deity. How soon can you finish liberty with no oracle/stonehenge? If you're beelining gunpowder you don't need your money for upgrads, so you can rushbuy temple(s) and buy up cultural CS's at least. 2 cities with monument/temple + specialist and liberty is 18 cpt, plus extra for capital and NC, so you can get to around 20 :c5culture:/turn right after hitting philosophy. If you have enough resources/trading partners you get more like 30 with 3 cities, though you could get more out of your gold at least temporarily by getting 2 cultural CS's for 32 :c5culture:/turn with only 2 of your own cities. Of course, france gets even more bonus culture, and spain can possibly get lots of bonus gold from quick explorations so 2 of the 3 civs that make this strategy worthwhile are partly/mostly based upon luck.

I'll try it out later and see what sort of time it takes. I'm thinking turn 80-100 will be optimal, it will be interesting to see how that plays out.
 
The patch did nothing for me. Changing a resource from +5 happiness to+ 4 happiness must has taken all of 5 seconds. Fix the AI. These constant number tweeks only mess up strategies. Poor excuse of a patch. Plenty of things to add to the game, changing a 4 to a 5 does nothing for me

You seem to think that there was only one change in this patch. AI got some work as well. Did you read over the patch notes..at all?

Spoiler :
[NOTES]

Pacing has received a large amount of work. Expect to have more of a challenge managing your empire at higher difficulty levels than you did before. Consider dropping a difficulty level if you have problems.
Existing saves will work correctly. However, the balance pass may make your existing happiness lower than expected when loading into your existing save post-patch.


[UI]

Civilopedia now available in the Main Menu (under “Other”)
Replay is now available at the end of the game, and through the main menu. You can choose Map, Graphs, and turn-by-turn. Only games played post-patch will apply.
Great People progress UI addition (upper-left Info Corner UI).
Combat preview for Aircraft UI addition.
Fixed aircraft UI issue causing the aircraft selection UI to duplicate itself when rebasing aircraft.
When loading save game files, you can now order the list by name, or last modified.


[DIPLOMACY]

Made backstab routine more transparent (the dialog will clearly state that they are backstabbing you).
AI now remembers when it has been nuked, for a permanent diplomatic penalty.
AI now recognizes a player that captured their capital for a permanent diplomatic penalty.
End declaration of friendship as soon as war is declared (so can't later get a notification that it has expired).
AI remembers if you satisfied one of their requests (positive modifier, decays over time, based on value of items granted).
AI remembers if you fought against a common foe (positive modifier, decays over time, based on damage done to the common foe).
Track trades between players and allow that to positively influence relationships (the better the deal for the AI, the stronger the modifier). Particularly useful for bribing a hostile AI.


[AI]

Rebalanced AI flavors and strategies for unit training to improve AI army composition and build choices.
Allow the AI to consider Pikeman units for offensive roles when they can't build Swordsman or Longswordsman.
Allow Alexander and Darius to consider Hoplites and Immortals for offensive roles in early game.
AI players may now use a Great General in early rushes on higher difficulties.
Modified flavor tags for Atomic Bomb and Nuclear Missile so AI builds them only when it decides it specifically wants Nukes.
Block City States from building carriers, atomic weapons.
Strategies for building mobile units now persist into Modern era to help AI decisions for when to build tanks and modern armor.
Dampen early game Grand Strategies to give the AI time to expand (AI were sometimes stuck in a single city until late in the game).
Victory adjustments to AI behaviors, including alternate victory paths as “back-ups” (for example, building the Apollo Program, even if they are not going for a Spaceship victory).
Revise code calculating recommended army size (using smaller armies if the threat is low).
Correct issue that was causing late-game continent-bound AI’s to over-build units intending to invade, and never properly execute the amphibious invasion.
Scale recommended army sizes based on difficulty level.
AI grand strategy and flavor weighting balance pass.
AI policy choice weighting balance pass.
AI tech choice weighting balance pass.


[GAMEPLAY]

Player is now given the option to return a CS worker that they free from barbarians.
Roads under captured cities no longer charge maintenance.
Machu Picchu no longer destroyed when capturing a city containing Machu Picchu.


[MULTIPLAYER]

Multiplayer AI is now consistent with Single Player AI.
Hot-Seat is now available through the multiplayer menu.
You can have as many humans playing as available slots in the game.
Password protection is built in.
All maps, including purchased and user-created, are available to play in Hot-Seat.
While play-by-email is not yet implemented, we did include an in-between turn saving option for those that want to play via email.


[BALANCE]
Mechanics

Policy “Finishers” added to all 10 policy trees. Taking all policies in a tree will grant an additional bonus effect. See policy notes below for more information.
Tweaked Policy cost formula (cheaper earlier, more expensive later).
Reduced per-city Policy cost increase by 50%.
Culture from City States tweaked (less early, more later).
Killing a barbarian for a city state now gives 12 influence (was 5).
Production cost adjustments for units/buildings/wonders (mostly a little cheaper, much cheaper late game).
Unhappiness per city increased to 3 from 2.
All great person tile improvements now connect all strategic resources.
Reduced Culture from Goody Huts to 20 from 30.
Defense penalty and city assault bonus promotions are now lost with upgrade.
Research agreements now give a tech boost instead of a free tech. Tech boosts start at 50% of the median value of all techs you can research. Can be boosted to 100% if you both start Rationalism and build the Porcelain Tower.


Terrain, Resources, and Improvements

New bonus resource: Stone (+1 production, improved with a Quarry). See the Stone Works building note below for additional details.
Map generation improvements to integrate Stone into production-poor terrain, reducing the temporary usage of Cows. Additionally, will switch grass bonus resources from Cows to Stone when production is needed.
Marsh and Fallout terrain penalty reduced from -33 to -15.
Academy yield increases with Scientific Theory.
Customs House yield increases with Economics.
Manufactory yield increases with Chemistry.
Marble wonder production mod reduced to 15%.
Luxury resources now give 4 Happiness, down from 5.
Remove penalty for improving Tundra, Snow and Desert.
Railroad improvement now takes 3 turns, down from 7.
Scrub Fallout now takes 2 turns, down from 5.
Repair improvement now takes 2 turns, down from 3.
Well improvements now remove jungle/forest/marsh.


Buildings

New building: Stone Works: +1 Happiness and +1 production, and +1 production for each source of Marble and Stone worked. Requires Marble or Stone.
Burial Tomb now correctly has an Artist slot.
Mud Pyramid Mosque reduced 1 Culture.
Circus moved to Trapping.
Forge maintenance reduced 1 gold.
Windmill production modifier reduced 5% to 10%.
Monastery base Culture reduced from 3 to 2. Per resource Culture unchanged.
Mint gold per resource reduced by 1 gold.
Colosseum maintenance reduced by 1 gold, Happiness reduced by 1.
Theatre maintenance reduced by 1 gold, Happiness reduced by 1.
Stadium maintenance reduced by 1 gold, Happiness reduced by 1.
Broadcast tower cultural modifier reduced to 33% but now gives 3 Culture.
Armory maintenance reduced by 1 gold and moved to Machinery.
Military academy maintenance reduced by 2 gold.
Arsenal moved to rifling and now provides city defense instead of unit production.
Walls now gives 4 Defense (was 5).
Walls of Bablylon now give 6 Defense (was 7.5).
Mughal Fort now gives 6 Defense (was 9).
Castle now gives 4 Defense (was 7.5).
University maintenance reduced by 1 gold and now gives a 33% boost to science instead of 50% (will increase to 50% after adopting Free Thought Policy).
Military Academy now requires Armory instead of Barracks.
Arsenal now requires Castle instead of Military Academy.
Military Base now requires Arsenal.
Wat now requires Library.
Mud Pyramid Mosque now requires Monument.
Harbor naval production reduced 10% but now increases sea resources yield by 1 hammer.
Seaports no longer require a sea resource, they now require a Harbor. Production per sea resource reduced by 1 hammer.
Factory production increased by 1 hammer but modifier decreased to 10%.
Solar/Nuclear plant cost greatly reduced.
Solar/Nuclear plant production increased by 1 hammer but modifier decreased to 15%.
Public School science per population reduced by 50% and now provides a flat 3 science.
Research Laboratory modifier reduced by 50% but now gives a flat 4 science.
Workshop production modifier reduced by 5%.
Barracks, Armory, Military Academy and Krepost now provide experience to all units trained.


Wonders

National College moved to Philosophy and reduced by 2 science.
Oxford University now gives 3 additional science.
Great Lighthouse now also provides a free Lighthouse in the city where it was built.
Great library now gives 3 additional science, and provides a free Library in the city where it was built.
Porcelain tower now additionally increases the Science granted when completing Research Agreements by 50%.
Hermitage moved to Acoustics and much cheaper to build. Now requires Opera Houses but gives only a 50% boost to Culture.
Stonehenge Culture reduced to 6 from 8.
Pyramids worker speed increase reduced to 25% from 50% but now give a free Worker when built
Hanging Gardens now give 10 Food instead of 1 population per city and Happiness.
Great Wall now obsoletes with Dynamite instead of metallurgy and gives 3 Culture. Additionally, a free Wall is provided in the city where it was built.
Hagia Sophia great person modifier reduced to 25% from 34%, and gives a free Great Person of your choice.
Eiffel Tower now give 5 Happiness plus 1 for every 2 Policies adopted.
Chichen Itza now grants an additional 4 Happiness.
Machu Picchu trade route gold increased by 5% and also gives a flat 5 gold.
The Colossus now gives an additional 5 gold.
Notre Dame now gives 10 Happiness, up from 5, and 3 Culture.
Sistine Chapel Culture modifier reduced from 33% to 25%.
Kremlin global city defense mod reduced to 25% from 50% but now gives 12 defense in the city where it's built.
Cristo Redentor Policy discount reduced from 25% to 10% but now gives 4 Culture.
Pentagon upgrade cost reduced to 33% from 50% but now gives 3 Culture.
Sydney Opera House moved to Mass Media and gives 50% Culture in the city where it's built plus 4 Culture.
Big Ben hurry modifier reduced to 15% from 25% but now gives a flat 4 gold.
Himeji bonus reduced to 15% from 25%, and provides a free Castle in the city where it was built.


Civilization Unique Abilities

Arabia: Bazaar now gives 2 gold on oil/oasis.
America: Remove river start bias.
America: Increase plot buy modifier to 50% from 25%.
China: Great General trait reduced to 50% from 100%.
Babylon: Great Scientist trait reduced to 50% from 100%.
Germany: Now receives a 25% discount on land unit maintenance.
Ottoman: Now receives a 67% discount on naval unit maintenance, and can upgrade Galley’s to Trireme’s.


Policies

Liberty and Autocracy are no longer mutually exclusive.
Freedom, Autocracy and Order are now mutually exclusive.
Tradition
Aristocracy now provides +15% Production when building Wonders down from 20%.
Landed Elite now provides 1 Happiness at every 10 Citizens in each City.
Tradition Finisher: +15% Growth and +2 Food in each city.
Liberty
Meritocracy: +1 Happiness for each city connected to your capital, and -5% Unhappiness from citizens in non-occupied cities.
Republic now adds an additional 5% building production modifier.
Liberty Finisher: Great Person of your choice.
Honor
Honor Opener now additionally provides Culture for each barbarian killed.
Warrior Code now also gives 15% melee unit production.
Military Caste now provides +1 Happiness and +2 Culture for each city with a garrison.
Professional Army now reduces cost of upgrading units by 33% and provides +1 Happiness per defensive building (Walls, Castle, Arsenal, Military base).
Honor Finisher: Grants gold for each enemy unit killed.
Piety
Piety Opener now provides a 15% production bonus on Culture buildings.
Free Religion now provides only 1 free Policy but increases the Culture from Monuments, Temples and Monasteries by 1.
Organized Religion now gives 1 Happiness per Monument, Temple and Monastery.
Reformation now increases Culture in all cities with a Wonder by 33%, and starts a Golden Age.
Theocracy now increase gold yield by 10% in cities with a Temple.
Piety Finisher: -10% Culture cost of future Policies.
Patronage
Scholasticism reduced from 33% to 25%
Patronage Finisher: Causes other players’ influence with City States to decrease 33% more per turn than usual.
Commerce
Naval Tradition policy now also gives +1 moves to embarked units.
Commerce Finisher: +1 Gold per Specialist.
Rationalism
Rationalist Opener now increases the Science granted when completing Research Agreements by 50%. Stacks with Porcelain Tower.
Free Thought now also increases University science yield by 17%
Humanism now also affects Public Schools and Observatories.
Rationalism Finisher: +1 Gold from Science buildings.
Freedom
Freedom Opener now provides 25% Great Person Points in all cities.
Democracy now provides -50% Unhappiness per Specialist.
Constitution now provides +2 Culture per Wonder.
Free Speech now provides 8 maintenance free units.
Freedom Finisher: +100% yield from Great Tile Improvements and increase length of Golden Ages by 50%.
Autocracy
Police State now provides 3 Happiness per Courthouse, and reduces the time it take to build Courthouses by 50%.
Total War now provides +15% Production when building Military Units and +15 XP for new units.
Autocracy Finisher: 30 turn attack bonus of +20%.
Order
Order Opener now provides +1 Happiness per City.
Socialism and Planned Economy swapped places.
Socialism buff to 15% reduction in building maintenance from 10%.
Planned Economy now increases Science yield by 25% in cities with a Factory.
Communism now provides 2 Production and 10% Production towards buildings in each city.
Order Finisher: +1 Food/Production/Science/Gold/Culture per city.


Technology

Reduced cost of Calendar, Civil Service, Iron Working, Gunpowder, Rifling and Dynamite.
Scaled up costs of all sciences starting in the mid-renaissance era and on (larger increases later on).
Metal Working requires Construction.
Railroad now requires Dynamite.
Radar now requires Combustion.
Globalization requires Computers, and the cost is increased.
Computers require Radar.
Particle Physics no longer requires Globalization (Space victory now possible without overlapping Diplomatic victory).
Future Tech requires Globalization.
Tech Aesthetics: moved Dynamite and all future technologies around by 1 position for better alignment.


Units/Combat

Destroyers no longer start with extra sight.
Extra Sight promotions are now lost with upgrade (Caravel).
Great General promotion spawning effectiveness reduced by 50%.
Mohawk Jungle/Forest bonus reduced to 25% from 50%.
Gunship anti-armor promotions now work correctly.
Jaguar now gets Woodsman promotion.
Minuteman now start with Drill I.
Mohawk Warriors no longer require Iron.
Carriers no longer require Oil.
Destroyer moved to Combustion.
Mechanized infantry moves reduced from 4 to 3.
Galley now upgrades to Trireme.
Ironclad now upgrades to Battleship.
+1 moves for Tank, Panzer, Modern Armor, with no sight penalty.
Increased combat strength of siege weapons to 50% of their ranged strength, increased intrinsic city attack promotions (10%/30% -> 20%/50%).
Increased Incan slinger combat strength slightly.
Increased Crossbowman and Chu-Ko-Nu combat and ranged strength.
Decreased Longswordsman, Fighter, Bomber, Guided Missile, Jet Fighter and corresponding UUs strength.
Removed Mandekalu Cavalry city attack bonus promotion (but still has no penalty).
Reduced Tank, Panzer, Modern Armor to lower tier city attack penalty (-25%, instead of -33%).
Aztec Culture from kills now stacks with new Honor Policy branch opener for double Culture killing barbarians.
Boosted Chariot Archer to strength 4 and ranged 7 (Egypt War Chariot as well).
Drop combat value of Berserker and Huscarl to match Longswordsman.


[MODDING]

Fixed a bug in Lua where "Events.<SomeEvent>.Remove" was not behaving correctly.
(Lua) Added GameEvents.CityCanBuyAnyPlot(ownerID, cityID) (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.CityCanBuyPlot(ownerID, cityID, plotX, plotY) (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.CityCanCreate(ownerID, cityID, projectTypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.CityCanMaintain(ownerID, cityID, processTypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.CityCanPrepare(ownerID, cityID, specialistTypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.CityCanTrain(ownerID, cityID, unitTypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.PlayerAdoptPolicy(playerID, policyTypeID); (Hook)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.PlayerAdoptPolicyBranch(playerID, policyBranchTypeID); (Hook)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.PlayerCanAdoptPolicy(playerID, policyTypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.PlayerCanAdoptPolicyBranch(playerID, policyBranchTypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.PlayerCanConstruct(playerID, buildingTypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.PlayerCanCreate(playerID, projectTypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.PlayerCanEverReseearch(playerID, techtypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.PlayerCanMaintain(playerID, processTypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.PlayerCanPrepare(playerID, specialistTypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.PlayerCanResearch(playerID, techTypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.PlayerCanTrain(playerID, unitTypeID); (TestAll)
(Lua) Added GameEvents.TeamSetHasTech(teamID, techID); (Hook)
It's now possible to have the tech tree "dead end" where the final technology is not repeatable.
New graph datasets used by the replay viewer can be added by mods.
Action Icons now use the database in the same way as other icons instead of using ActionIcons.lua.


It's by far the best patch we've had yet..
 
About the liberate isue i agree . A Civ still dont get it they should be thanxfull at you. Seriously the only advantage you get is a UN vote but you get a diplomatic penalty that doenst seam right...

In a recent game I liberated Siam (two cities too), mostly just cause I was sort of messing around near the end of my game. Siam denounces me like 2 or 3 turns later, and won't fair trade with me either. However, after building the UN and winning a diplomatic victory I did notice that Siam voted for me. So I suppose that if you really need an extra UN vote, liberation may be worthwhile.
 
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