Political Philosophy discussion

[Maltazard]

If social darwinism worked we would've already done it long ago. Even through the worst wars in history, many of "the weak" have survived somehow. One way or another it never worked. Probably a big part to that is that normal human beings are empathic creatures and pathological sociopaths are only a tiny minority. If they were a majority, on the other hand, chances are there wouldn't be a society at all.
Now if we're talking specifically about "weak to covid", then there might be a lot of surprises, since there seems to be a genetic predisposition to severe illness from it, and it has nothing to do with being rich or poor, physically weak or strong. It's also a selection that might not be most advantageous on the long term, since those genes might be useful for something else. It's extremely unlikely to have perfect genes in any given human, everyone has some genetic advantages and disadvantages that get carried over. Not to mention recessive genes. And then again, genetics are only a part of it, you have environmental factors as well, lifestyle, healthcare, etc... So, no, it's not going to "fix itself eventually".

 

[tmv]

You know what's really missing right now, in the current situation? Something like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event - I'm not sure how we could recover if that happened on top of it all.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Even through the worst wars in history, many of "the weak" have survived somehow.

The saving grace has been empathy and donation, along with a system of loopholes and tax rewards for it that also get twisted and corrupted half the time. For example, you might donate to a non-profit because you feel they do good, not realizing you donated through a company that bid to collect 2 mil towards that non-profit, but are just betting they can then thereafter continue to legally collect for that non-profit while everything beyond their bid becomes pure profit for them. Market competition helps when its healthy but it doesn't stop companies from being as parasitic as they can get away with being for greater profits. They system works despite being designed to fail for greater rewards for the rich, though just enough - but when you then throw in a monkeywrench into the gears like demanding fair pay at the individual level, which is what people keep saying you're supposed to do as a lower class worker to raise your situation, then the complaint is nobody is willing to work. Nobody SHOULD be willing to just throw their life and time away without it being at a major profit on the cost of living, but our economy has been keeping people closer and closer and often UNDER the cost of living for their hourly wages for too long for the benefit of those who are invested with nothing but their $ into the company. Best way to profit is to control your expenses, particularly in employment costs. So now this class war is heating up and it's the poor who we blame. Love it.

You know what's really missing right now, in the current situation? Something like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event - I'm not sure how we could recover if that happened on top of it all.

Lol, yeah that's the kind of thing the Fiat system can't protect us from either.

 

[Maltazard]

Preach. I live in the only country in the EU that has lost purchasing power over the past 30 years. In 30 years we've actually gotten poorer. We've had a wage stagnation since the 90s when the law that mandated minimum increases to match inflation was abolished and salary negotiations were handed over to unions - which were as corrupt as they could ever be. And yet class struggle is nowhere to be seen: people are more concerned with newly invented civil rights issues.
Of course we're not a poor country yet, but being the only one of our "peers" to get poorer in the past 30 years... damn.

 

[Pepo]

Preach. I live in the only country in the EU that has lost purchasing power over the past 30 years. In 30 years we've actually gotten poorer. We've had a wage stagnation since the 90s when the law that mandated minimum increases to match inflation was abolished and salary negotiations were handed over to unions - which were as corrupt as they could ever be. And yet class struggle is nowhere to be seen: people are more concerned with newly invented civil rights issues.
Of course we're not a poor country yet, but being the only one of our "peers" to get poorer in the past 30 years... damn.

Honestly you have just describe the average working class situation in the west for the last decades. More and more lost rigths and the left centered in petite issues or directly making the game for the bussiness class. Well, not that it is strange considering how asymetric political power is in liberal democracies.

 

[MattCA]

Government fights dirty to end the protests. Can they not see it's adding more fuel to the fire?
Convoi à Québec: René Lévesque envahi par les manifestants - YouTube
TRUCKERS! Montréal FREEDOM CONVOY 2022!?! La Cité Fanfare LIBERTÉ du Dé-Con-Fine-Ment Québec Canada - YouTube
Rally held in Regina against COVID-19 restrictions - YouTube
BREAKING: Freedom Convoy rolls into TORONTO! - YouTube

Edit: Russel Brand video again. He explains all this better then anyone I've seen. Good video for anyone who thinks all this is pointless.
This Is Impossible To Ignore - YouTube

Edit: lol no mandates for most of these folks.
Freedom Convoy Okanagan with 2000+ Patriots. BC Canada Feb.5, 2022 | IrnieracingNews - YouTube

Guy walks up to parlament buildings property after week 1 of "protest".
Freedom Convoy Rally- Wellington St. Ottawa Feb.5, 2022 | IrnieracingNews - YouTube

 

[Joij21]

You're missing the point that work would shut down due to the inability to GO to work without putting one's self at the likely risk of death due to disease. If we keep dealing with that as a factor or it gets worse, your answer is to lean harder into social darwinism and let the unlucky and unwilling just be the ones to die for everyone else's chances to live. I refuse to be just fine with wealth being the measure of a right to survive.

So what? Are you saying people shouldn't work to feed themselves because of a virus that simply can't be stopped?

Regardless people aren't following any of the rules anyways and plenty of police here in the U.S. say they won't nor can't enforce most of the mandates in even the strictest of states.

So it already is social darwinism right now. Where only those who survive the disease will be the ones to rebound the economy (as well as those triple vaccinated).

 

[Thunderbrd]

So what? Are you saying people shouldn't work to feed themselves because of a virus that simply can't be stopped?

A society that can't pause for a bit without collapsing has a problem with leaning too hard into efficiency as a priority.

Regardless people aren't following any of the rules anyways and plenty of police here in the U.S. say they won't nor can't enforce most of the mandates in even the strictest of states.

I don't think things should have to be mandated but... y'know... Let's Go Darwin! If you're too stupid to follow the rules and suggestions, fine get sick and die.

I have to admit I'm fortunate enough to be able to work from home. Every person in my office at work has had Covid at this point and I'm the last to dodge the bullet so far.

 

[MattCA]

GoFundMe lost, now this? Wrong way to fight this, government. Locals won't let you starve the truckers out.

Cop: "You can't go down there with the horses, the whole area is blocked off to traffic."
Trucker protest: Chuckwagon carrying diesel fuel turned away from protest site by Ottawa police - YouTube

First 2 min of this has some nice video shots of the Montana-Alberta blockade that has been goin on.
Police standoff UPDATE; Cowboys join convoy! Plus, Trudeau's replacement?! - YouTube

Many locals support Alberta border blockade despite disruptions - YouTube

Too much public support now. There is only one easy way to end this overnight, and only one person who can do it.
Think Canada is gonna give this up while half of Europe is done with covid or easing restrictions?
Norway was recently added to that list I think. Who's following the science?

Edit: Very nice France.
« Tous avec le Québec, tous avec le Canada, ensemble à Ottawa ! » Manifestation Union Sacrée à Paris - YouTube

Edit: Chapter 2 in USA? Uh Oh... What would the protest even be about? US already said no to cross border mandate.
The American Trucker Convoy to DC 2022 Is in the Making - Here Are the Details! - YouTube
I don't know what will happen, but it won't turn into a big festival like Canada. US already did a left/right split over Canadas protest. One side calls us heroes and the other calls us Nazis.
Trevor Noah insults all truck drivers? Why?
Disgruntled Truckers Hold ‘Freedom Convoy’ In Canada | The Daily Show With Trevor Noah - YouTube

Edit: Another video of horses arriving at border.
Freedom Convoy 2022 - YouTube
Freedom Convoy: Coutts - Milk River USA Border Blockade UPDATE Feb.6, 2022 | IrnieracingNews - YouTube

 

[Maltazard]

A society that can't pause for a bit without collapsing has a problem with leaning too hard into efficiency as a priority.

I mean, just-on-time delivery structure, fragile and complex production chains, trade imbalances and the excessive use of algorithms to predict demand of goods and allocation without the flexibility of a human brain to adapt to shocks are the main issues with any shortage we are seeing right now. Followed up by opportunist behaviour of scalpers, stockers, resellers, mostly due to a free market that has gone from free to wild. I can't compete with a scalper that employs automated purchasing bots, has preferential access to manufacturers, and enough capital to create an artificial oligopoly and enforced scarcity situation. This is happening with graphics cards and consoles on the consumer side of things, it's happening with cars' industry microchips on the corporate side of things, and it will continue to happen.

So it already is social darwinism right now. Where only those who survive the disease will be the ones to rebound the economy (as well as those triple vaccinated).

Whatever form of social darwinism is it then when all we have is stupid people being stupid as they always have? That is, if vaccinated people who use masks already have the greatest chance to avoid and survive infection (an artificial intervention), while antivaxxers and antimaskers are at the greatest risk of infection and death. All in all I'd say there isn't any more darwinism than there has ever been in any other situation then. It's not that much different from people who choose to drunk drive and crash off the road. Only issue really is the collateral damage these fools will cause, which with Covid is a lot, between spreading the virus, fostering mutations, and coggling up hospital space.
If anything, this virus might end up weeding out some antisocial behaviour in developed countries then. It's always sad when innocent people die, but when you hear of an antivaxxer dieing in the hospital with COVID (and we know because most of them are proud and loud about it), it can't be helped to think that they could've easily prevented it by vaccinating like 90% of the population did. Death rates among the vaccinated vs unvaccinated are exemplary.
But as I was saying, a lot of "strong" characters are going to die while a lot of "weaklings" with their triple shot are going to survive. From an evolutionary point of view, we're not coming out of this stronger as a species.

This is all assuming we can trust the data of course, which is an entirely different cup of tea to argue about.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Interesting quick tale - last week my Libertarian Stepdad and his friend visited and we had a good chat, political, spiritual, everything in between. They have interesting views - don't fully agree with em myself but interesting and understandable. Part of that is a whole anti-mask, anti-vax thing based on the idea that the world govs are just using a rather harmless disease here to create fear and train people to do as directed - aka, to teach us all to be less anti-social and resistant to authority. I mean, I get that argument really.

But it's ironic that today I find out my Mom and her husband are personally on Covid watch and isolating themselves because that 80 yr old friend of his that visited with us came down with Covid and is hospitalized (they think he will recover). Eesh. My mother is in remission after her 2nd major bout with cancer and her immune system is shot so she's at a keenly higher risk as well. Yes, they have been double vax'd but he sure felt regretful about it.

I also spoke with a very right wing US citizen recently who had the hardest time even imagining that government might be trying to in any way help people. I'm starting to get the feeling that our failings are no longer being perceived as a corrupted system but that the system is purely an extension OF corruption and I think, philosophically, that's where a lot of us are trying to make up our minds here. I guess my work on this mod gives me a perspective that a system (government/oligarchy etc) CAN both be trying to help us and 'manage' the herd of humanity responsibly - we ARE a resource and a product after all - AND at the same time be out to get as much out of us as it can - but if it doesn't take SOME care of us, it won't have as much reward to obtain from us. So it's not 'out to get us' but rather, out to get everything we can provide in as much as it can for as little expense as possible. I think if the virus is manmade, we should strongly consider that it is the antisocial sheep in the herd that they're going to want to eliminate - not the ones that do as they are told when they are told. So to me, it's more likely, and the evidence just keeps adding up here to support this theory, that Covid is a threat to those who fear the government control (because they will refuse to take the precautions prescribed), more than it is to those who fear Covid and do what they can to protect themselves from it.

 

[Joij21]

A society that can't pause for a bit without collapsing has a problem with leaning too hard into efficiency as a priority.

Name one society in human history that doesn't collapse from pausing for too long. Even tribal societies would collapse if people refused to hunt.

 

[raxo2222]

Name one society in human history that doesn't collapse from pausing for too long. Even tribal societies would collapse if people refused to hunt.

Galactic Federation of "Fully Automated Luxury Socially Progressive Space Communism" solar systems
On other hand if we count robots as actual beings, then you can search up all way to end of tech tree and then find nothing that can pause forever
Even Cthulhu and God has to work

 

[MattCA]

I don't know if all governments are evil. I've only made up my mind about this current one like many other Canadians. Trudeau's current actions are hard to explain unless you've been watching him. He is now fighting the people the way he would fight anther politician.
He is devious.
He just won an election in 2021. Calling that election was his first big mistake. He was actually way up in the polls during covid and could win a majority gov, so he called an early election. People where pissed about early election during covid. His popularity instantly dropped and he came out of the election with almost the exact same minority gov he went in with. His power grab didn't work and we spread covid for nothing.

I hope this is BS. I don't think Canada heard this yet.
'Astonishing bit of fake news' exposed in Canada - YouTube


These are still his only tweets about the protests.

Justin Trudeau
@JustinTrudeau
Officiel du gouvernement - Canada
Today in the House, Members of Parliament unanimously condemned the antisemitism, Islamophobia, anti-Black racism, homophobia, and transphobia that we’ve seen on display in Ottawa over the past number of days. Together, let’s keep working to make Canada more inclusive.
6:47 PM · Feb 1, 2022

Justin Trudeau
@JustinTrudeau
Officiel du gouvernement - Canada
There is no place in Canada for this behaviour. So, to those responsible: It needs to stop. And to those who joined the convoy but are uncomfortable with the symbols of hatred and division on display: Be courageous and speak out. Do not stand for, or with, intolerance and hate.
1:59 PM · Jan 31, 2022

Justin Trudeau
@JustinTrudeau
Officiel du gouvernement - Canada
I want to be very clear: We’re not intimidated by those who hurl abuse at small business workers and steal food from the homeless. We won’t give in to those who fly racist flags. And we won’t cave to those who engage in vandalism, or dishonour the memory of our veterans.
1:59 PM · Jan 31, 2022

Justin Trudeau
@JustinTrudeau
Officiel du gouvernement - Canada
I know this pandemic is frustrating. It’s frustrating that, after two years, we’re not done fighting COVID-19. But over the past few days, Canadians have been shocked – and, frankly, disgusted – by the behaviour displayed by some people protesting in our nation’s capital.
1:59 PM · Jan 31, 2022


Edit: Here is 2 min vid of day 8 near parlament. Read tweets then watch vid. He should respond properly by now.
I FOUND THEM!!! - YouTube

Stumbled across some Canadian flags in UK now.
UK: Protesters march against COVID restrix in Manchester as 'UK Freedom Convoy' passes through city - YouTube
And It looks like the folks in France are keepin some up. Awsome.
[15:00] Départ de la manifestation contre le Pass Vaccinal de place de l'Alma à place Pierre-Laroque - YouTube
Someone in Netherlands. Looks like nice protestors in Europe. I guess these are just the countries that are behind on lifting mandates/restrictions?.
Pays-Bas : manifestation contre les mesures sanitaires à Rotterdam - YouTube

 

[Joij21]

Even Cthulhu and God has to work

I don't think God if he exists or any god would have to work since they don't need to eat anything in order to stay alive. They are essentially immortal, invincible, and separate from the material plane of existence therefore any work they do is most likely a result of boredom if they do infact work at all.

Cthulhu I'm not sure because he looks biological to me, so he might be a hungry boy. If I'm correct isn't he just like a regular creature that got really intelligent and massive and thus gained a lot of psionic powers? Same with the other elder gods right?

 

[raxo2222]

I don't think God if he exists or any god would have to work since they don't need to eat anything in order to stay alive. They are essentially immortal, invincible, and separate from the material plane of existence therefore any work they do is most likely a result of boredom if they do infact work at all.

Cthulhu I'm not sure because he looks biological to me, so he might be a hungry boy. If I'm correct isn't he just like a regular creature that got really intelligent and massive and thus gained a lot of psionic powers? Same with the other elder gods right?

Your civilization also would be like God at certain tech level, but still energy gradient is needed.
Cthulhu and other elder gods would be simple pet projects for such civilization.
That is both still would need to do something since energy sources aren't eternal.

Definition of work would expand so "work" will never stop working at any point of technological progression
In Caveman2Cosmos there always is someone who has job all way to the end.
Final job is to reboot omniverse, so things can start from simple beginning without any memory of previous cycle.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Name one society in human history that doesn't collapse from pausing for too long. Even tribal societies would collapse if people refused to hunt.

True, though there are numerous societies that can at least weather out a season - throughout history many have had to shut down during winter months. I think ultimately, my point is that as globalized as we are, if one crashes to that extreme, we're all capable of being drawn under with it, particularly if its one like the US and central to a LOT of trade agreements. I'm kinda having a hard time understanding if we have a disagreement on anything here or not?

Ultimately, a society that has plenty to go around should graduate to a system that does not require one to work to survive so long as it can find other ways to ensure that plenty continues to be the case. Automation should be easing up on the need for labor but instead it's making the inability to labor all the more painful on those who can't - you now have to beg for an opportunity to trade your time and effort for less than you need because automation is in so many fronts making human labor an obsolete inefficient waste of investment. As we proceed into a future where this will continue to increasingly be the case in more and more regions of human endeavor, we will require a more creativity permissive economy that isn't constantly flinging around a whip 'or else' you don't have the $ to cover your cost of living as our society has been driven up to this point.

 

[Maltazard]

We might end up in a place where many will be trading blind obedience for a universal basic income. Reminds me a little of feudalism, minus the getting your hands dirty part - only your souls is required.
What would that obedience be good for, is hard to imagine from my point of view.

 

[Joij21]

Your civilization also would be like God at certain tech level, but still energy gradient is needed.
Cthulhu and other elder gods would be simple pet projects for such civilization.
That is both still would need to do something since energy sources aren't eternal.

Azathoth would be the exception though since apparently reality is just a result of him dreaming. Though he does look fleshy and is actually asleep in his so-called dream with other eldrich entities dancing around him with flutes to keep him from awaking and destroying everything in existence. But his fleshyness makes it all questionable as to whether or not he actually needs to eat, but it almost seems like he doesn't because he's been sleeping for a long time (or maybe he will get hungry for some snacks in the fridge and wakeup killing us all one day). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azathoth

As for energy sources not being eternal or gods needing energy gradients, no they wouldn't. They could produce all energy and matter ex nihilo, and if one exists beyond the material plane; and is allegedly eternal like the Abrahamic Yahweh; then one would not require energy or matter in the first place since they would be beyond the veil of time itself.

True, though there are numerous societies that can at least weather out a season - throughout history many have had to shut down during winter months.

Our society has already weathered eight seasons or two whole years since that is how long these sporadic shutdowns have been going on throughout the west.

I think ultimately, my point is that as globalized as we are, if one crashes to that extreme, we're all capable of being drawn under with it, particularly if its one like the US and central to a LOT of trade agreements. I'm kinda having a hard time understanding if we have a disagreement on anything here or not?

Well yeah there's always problems when your own society becomes too dependent on others. However, China has been killing people and making them disappear as a solution to covid, so I'm not sure if their factories will ever stop producing us cheap goods anytime soon since they'll always find less then moral ways to keep it going for their own greed.

Ultimately, a society that has plenty to go around should graduate to a system that does not require one to work to survive so long as it can find other ways to ensure that plenty continues to be the case. Automation should be easing up on the need for labor but instead it's making the inability to labor all the more painful on those who can't - you now have to beg for an opportunity to trade your time and effort for less than you need because automation is in so many fronts making human labor an obsolete inefficient waste of investment. As we proceed into a future where this will continue to increasingly be the case in more and more regions of human endeavor, we will require a more creativity permissive economy that isn't constantly flinging around a whip 'or else' you don't have the $ to cover your cost of living as our society has been driven up to this point.

Perhaps, but that would require a series of violent revolutions as I doubt the system could just transition naturally without some elites getting upset over loosing potential power and wealth.

 

[MattCA]

Cops continue taking fuel. Mass arrests will probably happen soon. This has been 11 days of 100% peaceful protest.
Shutting down peaceful protests like this is against the rules in the western world.
Police Take Freedom Convoy Fuel, Daniel Bulford says #HoldTheLine #irnieracingNews - YouTube
Incredibly important message (comments disabled on purpose) - YouTube
Freedom Convoy Base Camp - Live from Police Raid Ottawa #irnieracingNews - YouTube