Post Game Thoughts

[BLubmuz]

I highly doubt that since your own Forum reveals that your team was planning on attacking the Continuum for quite some time, well before you even started warring with the Mavs.

Your comments from the very beginning of the game were very war-mongering and its easy to see you were just itching to attack. One thing to be aware of is that by violating the NAP against human opponents this game you have created a reputation for yourself as untrustworthy. That reputation will follow you into future games and is going to harm/influence how others view your team.

It's true. But i meant that i decided to attack you at the time i did, while before that we were just discussing the option.
Then, i don't care much my reputation in MP, since i doubt i will play another MP game, too long to my taste. But Sirius and Q did not has any NAP or other treaties, just OB and some fair resources trades. Breaking that absurd ETTT, IMHO can't be considered as breaking a NAP, as i suggested to do with Amazon when the time was right, after we researched PP and started Rifling. If we denied PP to the ETTT and were close to rifling Amazon were toasted, i think. Unfortunately i was the only one to foresee what a trap the ETTT was for Sirius. And how it ruined the game.

 

[cav scout]

It's true. But i meant that i decided to attack you at the time i did, while before that we were just discussing the option.
Then, i don't care much my reputation in MP, since i doubt i will play another MP game, too long to my taste. But Sirius and Q did not has any NAP or other treaties, just OB and some fair resources trades. Breaking that absurd ETTT, IMHO can't be considered as breaking a NAP, as i suggested to do with Amazon when the time was right, after we researched PP and started Rifling. If we denied PP to the ETTT and were close to rifling Amazon were toasted, i think. Unfortunately i was the only one to foresee what a trap the ETTT was for Sirius. And how it ruined the game.

My apologies, you are right that we did not have a NAP. It was completely acceptable to attack us at any time.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Breaking that absurd ETTT, IMHO can't be considered as breaking a NAP, as i suggested to do with Amazon when the time was right, after we researched PP and started Rifling. If we denied PP to the ETTT and were close to rifling Amazon were toasted, i think. Unfortunately i was the only one to foresee what a trap the ETTT was for Sirius. And how it ruined the game.

Its ironic how clearly you see that ETTT contained no NAP when you are justifying your attack on Q, but then when AMAZON attacked you to defend Q you claim that the ETTT "is so long and complicated and no one can understand it" I remember you going as far ask to ask the admins to enforce at least a 1 turn NAP on us because you believed that we couldnt attack Sirius without warning because of the ETTT.

And the ETTT didnt ruin the game. Blubmuz ruined Sirius. Next time we will play without tech trades, and 2metra can attest to this... Playing without tech trades does not stop people from whining and weeping that things are unfair and unbalanced and every other kind of crying Bottom line is players play, winners win, and quitters quit, no matter the rules.

 

[2metraninja]

Hahah!!! Sommers strikes again!

Seriously, I cant stop myself.

Mow seriously, Blubmuz, to my thinking (well, I read way too many knights novels as a kid I guess where the good are truly good and the bad ones are bad to the bone and this formed somehow my perceptions about the world) I just can mix the two of your personalities you show here. On one side, you are nice guy, moderate, even humble (my admiration on your calm and reasonable answer to our infamous boot-аss-wiping taunting letter). But on the other side, you cheated by double-moving in-game and we caught you twice (no, Sommers did not photoshopped those screenies I can attest to that for sure, as I saw with my eyes the lonely archers standing to defend your Home Island cities when I was positioning our transport to raze them in the next turn and then suddenly they became MGs when Sommers razed one of the cities and we were taking screenshots because we were suspecting you for moving after us for long-long time). The Admins saw the proofs too and then loged in-game and investigated and took really modest action (only the offending units deleted). And after this compelling proofs and mild punishment and after we decided to keep things quiet, you alone go to the main thread and start yelling and insulting the admins and calling us cheaters? WTF? How you combine those 2 of your personalities?

 

[BLubmuz]

Its ironic how clearly you see that ETTT contained no NAP when you are justifying your attack on Q, but then when AMAZON attacked you to defend Q you claim that the ETTT "is so long and complicated and no one can understand it" I remember you going as far ask to ask the admins to enforce at least a 1 turn NAP on us because you believed that we couldnt attack Sirius without warning because of the ETTT.

I clearly remember that the ETTT and the NAP were 2 different treaties and that we signed the NAP only with you. I was sure that the NAP has a 10 turns forced peace, but i was wrong, it was referred to Sirius and Amazon being the only survivors. I was sure there was the need for each of us to inform the counter part that the NAP was ceased before to take any action. I was wrong there too, but i needed to read the NAP 2 more times before to realize i was wrong. This is why i affirm that both treaties were too much complicated to my taste. But probably you were counting on that.

That's really all, i have my SG to follow.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I was counting on Sirius being stuck in ETTT until only 2 of us were left or until only the 2 of us had a chance to win. The ASP treaty clearly shows this as it gives a automatic 10 turn NAP when only AMAZON and Sirius remain. So it is clear the treaty had that in mind from the start, for it to come down to we two.

Sirius plan to win was going beautiful and AMAZONs plan was going well too. Who knows who would have won in the end? It would have been a close match.

But what I NEVER counted on, was for Sirius to just basically hand the victory to us by dumping the ETTT:suicide:... "OMG!" I was thinking. "I can hardly believe it?!? WTF are they doing, attacking Q and leaving the alliance?!? Hooray! How lucky for us! Sirius commits suicide... "

Because THAT was the "trap" of ETTT (if there was any). The trap was you had to stay in it to have a chance to win. If you were to fall into the trap of being selfish for your techs, then you fall into the trap by leaving the ETTT and essentially eliminating yourself. So if anyone fell for a trap it was those who wanted to leave, not those who wanted to stay.

 

[AlphaShard]

See this was my issue how were we going to get to that two civs left state. To me it seemed like Amazon was playing the cop waiting for the first person to step out of line.

 

[Sommerswerd]

See this was my issue how were we going to get to that two civs left state. To me it seemed like Amazon was playing the cop waiting for the first person to step out of line.

Good question! And yes, like a World Police that is kind of how we felt when Sirius attacked Q, like we were being asked to police Sirius bad behaviour by Q, and also being asked by Sirius to Punish the Q and CDZ "spongers" for not pulling their weight.

To answer your question, there were many different ways but the MOST important part, is the we were supposed to TALK about it and AGREE to it together. Instead, Sirius just tried to take advantage while we were busy with Merlot and gobble up as much land as they could. The question you just asked Alphashard, is what should have been asked BEFORE Sirius tried to take any cities on Comet, and BEFORE Sirius attacked Q.

Anyway, just one idea of what could have happened, is Sirius could have suggested where they wanted to attack next and offered to divide the land in advance before any attacks were made. Another idea would have been to just agree to go for a peaceful victory and slowly pull ahead, offering to vote others out of the ETTT, one by one, until only AMAZON and Sirius were left... Those are just some ideas off the top of my head, but my point is Sirius didn't even try, they just said screw it and went for the quick domination win.

 

[damnrunner]

To answer your question, there were many different ways but the MOST important part, is the we were supposed to TALK about it and AGREE to it together.

AMAZON had a good deal of discussion before Sirius unilaterally attacked Q about how we should should go about attacking Q with Sirius. If we had been asked and agreed to divvy up land we probably would have been game as log as it was a fairly fair split. And you can trust we would not have freeloaded when it comes to combat

 

[AlphaShard]

AMAZON had a good deal of discussion before Sirius unilaterally attacked Q about how we should should go about attacking Q with Sirius. If we had been asked and agreed to divvy up land we probably would have been game as log as it was a fairly fair split. And you can trust we would not have freeloaded when it comes to combat

Amazon was asked:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=365648&page=6

Blubmuz jumped the gun.

 

[2metraninja]

Amazon was asked:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=365648&page=6

Blubmuz jumped the gun.

Yes, you asked us and we honestly advised you:

On ending the ETTT
We agree that you carrying the alliance's tech must be cumbersome. We are actually surprised that you bore the burden so long without protest. We did not expect you to renew the SAP treaty, as it obligates you to remain a member of the ETTT under section 7.3.*

We have analyzed the ETTT, and in our opinion, Sirius can not unilaterally withdraw honourably from the ETTT. The only way for a member to leave the ETTT is under Section 2.2, which requires consent of all other members, so CDZ, Q and AMAZON would have to vote Sirius out. Of course, we cant vote Sirius out, because Section 7.4 the SAP treaty forbids either of us from voting the other out. So the only way Sirius can get out of the ETTT is to violate the treaty, which means they can be automatically expelled under section 2.3.

Besides comprimising our honour, violating the treaty would almost certainly result in CDZ and Q joining M&M and attacking us both, which we would prefer to avoid. Our espionage production is high enough that we are confident that we would be able to steal any tech that a team outside the ETTT researches as soon as they get it. Indeed, two of the last three techs we contributed to the ETTT were stolen. So we are less concerned with any member leaving the ETTT, as long as M&M are elimminated first.

Of course you already know all of this, but it does not address you issue of not wanting to give any more tech to CDZ and Q. What we suggest, is that Sirius should just stop teching immediately. As you correctly pointed out, we already have the tech advantage we need already to capture the M&M islands, and our espionage prevents them from advancing in tech any further.

If you instead focus on gold, you can bolster yourselves in other areas... upgrades for example, and still stop contributing to the advancement of CDZ and Q. This way you do it without technically violating the treaty and without driving them into the welcome arms of M&M. We are currently preparing to invade Merlot, as you are preparing to invade Mavericks. We also suggest, that you could speed this process along if you were willing to subsidize our upgrades, through a grant or loan while you halt your tech in favor of gold.

Once M&M are elimminated, we could then ask CDZ to vote with us to expel Quatronia as you suggest. Once Quatronia is voted out, the two of us could then vote to expel CDZ. That is the only sane way to do it within the boundaries of the treaty, because if we dump an ETTT ally BEFORE M&M were elimminated, that ally would obviously join M&M immediately, giving M&M all their tech, including Rifling, Steel and Astronomy which would doom the former ETTT allies.

Patience is what we advise our wise Sirian Friends. We look forward to hearing from you.

Basically giving you detail instructions for the only reasonable and possible way how Sirius and Amazon can be the last two teams standing. But then, you are right, your uncontrollable general spoiled your chances then and there.

BTW, more and more I think of it, it could have worked, if he was a better general than he is. Actually capturing QHI would have been serious hit on the alliance. Q's destroyers, armies and most important money were well used to crush Sirius. Also, if he was better at defending your own cities, you were not going to lose heart so easily and might have been able to fight longer and maybe more successfully. But thats the typical mistakes SP players make when trying MP - they fight like they fight against the brainless AIs - you put overwhelming SOD at their gates and they are supposed to just sit there like ducks and die. Not gonna work against competent player. Come on Blub, show some imagination and inspiration next time

 

[Sommerswerd]

Hmm, I forgot about that letter...

So yea, there is no way you guys can claim we didnt give you the path to making it just the two of us. We spelled it out so neatly and cleanly for you all you had to do is listen. In retrospect, it probably would have been easier to vote CDZ out first and then go from there. IIRC, think that is what I subjectively preferred, simply because CDZ had mostly lost interest in the game while Q was still actively participating, so voting CDZ out made more sense.

But you guys had been acting so selfish lately, especially when we pointed out that invading Merlot together first then Mavs next, made more sense than invading Mavs first because Merlot had more commerce while Mavs never got Calendar to get their hapiness resource.**

Since you guys had rejected that idea and just tried to hurry and snatch all Mavs land greedy greedy style, I thought you would probably be as selfish about going after CDZ first, since CDZ was located closer to us. So we said Q first as an accomodation and olive brance to you guys, but as usual you just ignored it because Sirius all game was constanly thinking short term looking for the comparative advantage. In fact the most forward thinking, big-picture, long term good thing you guys did was join the ETTT and some didnt even want to do that... funny to see how it all shook out now reading the threads

**(As a side note... WTF?!? Mavs never researched CALENDAR to get their dyes??? They didnt even start trying to tech Calendar until when they were being destroyed, and even then I suspect it was for Astronomy, not dyes. Soooo... what gives Mavs? I mean, I saw a bunch of times you guys were calling AMAZON rookies, etc, but I just don't get why you guys would never get Calendar to build your Dye plantations?

I would really like to hear from somebody on Mavs to explain that decision cause that just seems, well... for lack of a better word... Rookie behavior to me. Maybe you guys have some other explanation )

 

[AlphaShard]

Well I did give you the Great Merchant from Economics, as show of not being greedy greedy. I guess Blubmuz really destroyed us on the Diplo front.

I think most of there dyes were irrigated or cottages.