prince/monarch questions

[countrygrl]

hi,

i'm new here. i have occassionally lurked from time to time and have found answers to questions in the past that have helped get up to prince level, but i need some advice from some of those pros out there.

my first question is about non-financial civs and prince. i cannot win, no matter what playing prince with a non financial civ. it doesn't seem to matter what traits i use, how i employ them, what wonders i get. i always end up falling way behind in the middle ages and can never seem to overcome it. i can usually end up out teching the ai at the end, but its too little too late always and i finish second or third. i have tried all kinds of strats from warmongering, to cottag economy, to specialist (the hardest for me) and i can't seem to win anything.

but if i'm a financial civ! I WIN EVERY TIME!!!!! in fact, i usually get the hammurabi or ceasar on prince with any financial civ. i can get culture wins in 1850, and domination wins in the 1800's with 18 CIVS TOO! and i can space race in the early 1900's.

my second question is how is the adjustment to monarch. i wanna try it out i think. but i kinda feel bad cuz i wanna be able to beat prince with a non-financial civ first.

can you guys help me out?

 

[Sisiutil]

Achieving a win "outside your comfort zone" before you move up a level is probably a good idea.

At Prince level, you can still get away with a Cottage Economy with a non-Financial leader FTW. Try choosing a leader with a different but terribly awesome characteristic. I recommend either of the Caesars. Neither are financial, but if you bee-line to Iron Working and get those Praetorians thumping the neighbours ASAP, you'll find yourself in a very strong position come mid-game.

Aside from that, you should have a look at the articles in the War Academy here at CFC. Lots of helpful articles there (including a few by yours truly ). Pick one for the area of your game you think is weakest and go from there. As long as I'm blowing my own horn, check out the ALC games--many of which feature non-Financial leaders, and the first eight or so were played on Prince level.

Also, try posting a saved game here and ask for advice. You'll get plenty of insight into the specifics of your game that way.

Hope this helps!

 

[Refar]

If you dont know it yet, take a look at Strategy Guide for Beginners in his ^^ signature. Also try looking at articles on economies / city specialization. I think you might be neglecting your early game economy (Too late, to few cottaging) - because this is the scenario where Financial would make the biggest difference.

Other than this - posting a particular game / questions will gain you better and more specific advice.

 

[countrygrl]

okay, where to start. first with the first guy.

the problem i always end up having when i play a non financial civ is that i usually end up not having any production at all because i have to cottage everything in order to keep up. i have to cottage early in order to have a prayer keeping up in the tech race. by keeping up, i mean falling so far behind that it's hopeless. sometimes i get wiped out by an advanced army. but usually i fall too far behind because i can't build anything because most cities are totally cottaged.

yes, praetorians are an obvious choice to take care of some issues. but the apostolic palace always fights against me. the last game i wanted to take the apostolic palace city by force, i had two big stacks of units, i should have been set. i went in and took four cities, and got to the apostolic palace city before he used it to end the war. then he used the apostolic palace to get two cities back, he got all their culture back, and end up culturing out the other two cities i had left! this happened three times that game. and on my other war fronts i was losing captured cities due to the apostolic palace too. this happens everytime i play with the romans. as a lurker i read the war academy. most of that stuff is kinda straightforward though. other threads ive read have helped too. i don't think it's warring that's a problem. i think it is my approach, or timing or something.

there's really no point in posting a save. envision cottage economy for almost every city. and falling behind mid game. and never being able to catch up. but maybe i'll try another game and show some issues.

rafar, is prince or almost monarch player really in need of the beginners strategy guide! i'm insulted! seriously, most of that stuff is common sense.

 

[JujuLautre]

there's really no point in posting a save.

Oh yes there is. Because there could be tons of other problems you're not aware of

 

[countrygrl]

Oh yes there is. Because there could be tons of other problems you're not aware of

hmmmm

my dad is a little better than, he plays on monarch all the time but kina has the same problem with non-financial civs. he knows more than i do, but...

i dunno, maybe there are some things i've overlooked i guess.

like i said, i've been scouring these boards for long time now and i pretty much have utilized the tutorials, and threads to get myself this far! i've seen screenshots, and dummy moves, and i think i've refined my game pretty good.

i'll try a game tomorrow, and see what happens, and post some screen caps.

how thurough does this have to be?

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

I'd say post a save, since I don't know what else to suggest. I'm considering leaving Prince, since I dominate it every time I play (I just got a conquest victory the other day. Boo-ya!) and with any leader. Post a save, you could be doing things you arn't aware of that are holding you back. I should probably post saves mroe often, I know I get sloppy in some areas.

 

[Sisiutil]

the problem i always end up having when i play a non financial civ is that i usually end up not having any production at all because i have to cottage everything in order to keep up. i have to cottage early in order to have a prayer keeping up in the tech race. by keeping up, i mean falling so far behind that it's hopeless. sometimes i get wiped out by an advanced army. but usually i fall too far behind because i can't build anything because most cities are totally cottaged.

This sounds like an issue related to city specialization. If you're running a CE, yes, most of your cities will be cottaged. However, you should have some cities specialized in production that can spit out units almost non-stop (and the Heroic Epic should help one of them do this).

And most cities can balance out production and cottages, especially since it's rare to have a city with nothing but land that's suitable for cottages. So even cities with cottages can and should work some production tiles--you have to build markets, grocers, and banks there, after all, so you need hammers for that. You can have these cities alternate civilian with military builds.

rafar, is prince or almost monarch player really in need of the beginners strategy guide! i'm insulted! seriously, most of that stuff is common sense.

Well, my guide has about 40 pages of tips and tricks, but if you think you know them all...

hmmmm
i'll try a game tomorrow, and see what happens, and post some screen caps.

how thurough does this have to be?

Not much at all. Screen caps are completely optional. Just start a new thread and attach a mid-game save file, from right around the time you usually feel the game is slipping away from you, and ask for commentary. Trust me, you'll get lots.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

Not much at all. Screen caps are completely optional. Just start a new thread and attach a mid-game save file, from right around the time you usually feel the game is slipping away from you, and ask for commentary. Trust me, you'll get lots.

We are a very opinonated bunch here at CFC. Ever seen insults tossed around over what exactly a Specialist Economy means? I have

That said, this is one of my favourite spots on the internet. The level of respect and helpfullness is pretty unique for mesage boards.

 

[Sisiutil]

That said, this is one of my favourite spots on the internet. The level of respect and helpfullness is pretty unique for mesage boards.

Indeed. Compared to the rest of the wild and woolly Internet, this place is very... wait for it... civilized.

 

[Refar]

rafar, is prince or almost monarch player really in need of the beginners strategy guide! i'm insulted! seriously, most of that stuff is common sense.

Oh. Sorry Did not mean to insult you
I actually read my first strategy articles - a older version (i think) of the beginners guide among them - when moving up from prince to monarch. Most is common sense still a reminder might helps to focus on the important stuff.

 

[countrygrl]

i'm sorry guys. i'm such a . .. .. .. .. . i know. i write lots of things, and then the next day i look at what i wrote and i regret it. one kid at school last week actually called me a . .. .. .. .. . to my face!

i felt bad, so early this morning i read the beginners guide. and i learned one thing! and i think that was the CS slingshot with the oracle. it's never occured to me, and i don't know if i could pull it off on prince. i usually do go for code of laws if i get the oracle though. i read the intermediate tactics too. most of that stuff i've read lurking. like the pyramids gambit (stupid).

i think that any sort of gambit is stupid. they leave you so vulnerable. so i avoid those types of things. and prefer to play a more steady game.

don't you think you undervalue the spiral minarette and the three gorges dam? if i have strong religion, the spiral minarette is a valuable wonder. especially with wall street. then what about the dam? now that coal plants generate so much sickness in cities, if you have a big continent and get that wonder, it's amazingly beneficial compared to coal plants. and you can get by for the time lag between in my opinion.

what do you guys think of the happiness wonders? i really like to go for those now too, because with corporations you can just wheel and deal the "hits" for tons of corporate resources. i also kinda disagree with not trading oil and aluminum. if you dole those out to lesser civs that aren't competing at all, you can get tons of extra resources. if i play terra maps, i try and hoard those in the new world for that purpose!

i had time to start a new game this evening with a non-financial civ. i decided to try a continents map/huge/16 civs/four continents. i decided to be ramses and try a culture victory. i started on a good continent, with ghandi, montezuma, and the bismark. i got a whole bunch of war chariots and took out monty first, then bismark, then made some axemen and took out ghandi too! through all this i was able to chop/slave rush stonehenge in my capital. then i chop/slave rushed the oracle in berlin! i captured one religious capital delhi, and founded code of laws too! the best part...(or maybe not cuz i have nobody to tech trade with now) is that i have the whole continent! my priority now is to go straight for optics so i can start finding those other continents and start tech trading!

so far this is my best chance yet i think. i'll keep you guys posted!

thanks for the assistance too.

 

[Sisiutil]

i'm sorry guys. i'm such a . .. .. .. .. . i know. i write lots of things, and then the next day i look at what i wrote and i regret it. one kid at school last week actually called me a . .. .. .. .. . to my face!

i felt bad, so early this morning i read the beginners guide. and i learned one thing! and i think that was the CS slingshot with the oracle. it's never occured to me, and i don't know if i could pull it off on prince. i usually do go for code of laws if i get the oracle though. i read the intermediate tactics too. most of that stuff i've read lurking. like the pyramids gambit (stupid).

i think that any sort of gambit is stupid. they leave you so vulnerable. so i avoid those types of things. and prefer to play a more steady game.

don't you think you undervalue the spiral minarette and the three gorges dam? if i have strong religion, the spiral minarette is a valuable wonder. especially with wall street. then what about the dam? now that coal plants generate so much sickness in cities, if you have a big continent and get that wonder, it's amazingly beneficial compared to coal plants. and you can get by for the time lag between in my opinion.

what do you guys think of the happiness wonders? i really like to go for those now too, because with corporations you can just wheel and deal the "hits" for tons of corporate resources. i also kinda disagree with not trading oil and aluminum. if you dole those out to lesser civs that aren't competing at all, you can get tons of extra resources. if i play terra maps, i try and hoard those in the new world for that purpose!

i had time to start a new game this evening with a non-financial civ. i decided to try a continents map/huge/16 civs/four continents. i decided to be ramses and try a culture victory. i started on a good continent, with ghandi, montezuma, and the bismark. i got a whole bunch of war chariots and took out monty first, then bismark, then made some axemen and took out ghandi too! through all this i was able to chop/slave rush stonehenge in my capital. then i chop/slave rushed the oracle in berlin! i captured one religious capital delhi, and founded code of laws too! the best part...(or maybe not cuz i have nobody to tech trade with now) is that i have the whole continent! my priority now is to go straight for optics so i can start finding those other continents and start tech trading!

so far this is my best chance yet i think. i'll keep you guys posted!

thanks for the assistance too.

The CS Slingshot is really only possible in vanilla Civ IV, so be careful there.

Gambits are risky, that's why they're called gambits. Some are less risky than others. If one completely fails you can always restart a new game. But yeah, I haven't used that Pyramids gambit since the Frederick ALC, frankly. It's not the risk that bugs me as much as the micromanagement.

The Spiral Minaret can be useful in some games, if you utilize your state religion heavily. I like building it when I play as a Spiritual leader because then my temples are cheaper. The TGD has been nerfed in BTS--it now causes unhealthiness, or to be more exact, the power it provides causes it. Like most late game wonders, it's nice, but you can win without it. I usually only pursue the happiness wonders if I need resources to trade late in the game and can spare the hammers. Otherwise, someone else will build them and I can obtain their effects with a simple resource trade. Trading strategic resources is, as you've noticed, situational. I avoid it if I can but will do it if I must.

Ramesses is one of my favourite leaders. He has a great trait combination and a terrific UU. The recent BTS patch has made his UB even better. I like to build the religious wonder trifecta with him (Spiral Minaret, U. of Sankore, Apostolic Palace) to get the extra gold, research, and hammers from all my religious buildings, including the cheap temples. Glad you're having fun with him.

 

[countrygrl]

thanks sisiutil.

i played a little bit, but not too just now. and things still seem good. even without tech trading with ai's, i seem to be teching okay for non-financial civ. i have just sent out my first caravels. tomorrow i should find out how i stand.

i agree with your liking of ramses. i really liked him in regular civ when i was still playing noble. but as you know, i haven't been able to win with him on prince.

i was unaware that electricity itself provided unhealthiness! but it's still better than those dang coal plants.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I'm at the same state, moving from Prince to Monarch. The single change that made Prince easy was remembering the importance of food!

I had been placing as many cottages as I could, but I struggled to keep up with the AI. Now my goal is to grow my population quickly up to the caps set by happiness/health. Farms can then be converted to cottages.

Population is key. It allows you to work more tiles. It also allows you to support more units.

Check out your AI rivals and I suspect you will see they have more farms then you would expect.

 

[Sisiutil]

Another thing that I find helps when you move up a level is to give up something--usually one of those prizes like a wonder or a race (liberalism/circumnavigation) or a free Great Person. You know, something you're used to getting all the time early in the game on your current level. In fact, you may have to give up several of those prizes you're used to winning, especially in the early game.

The hammers and flasks are probably better spent on other priorities that will simply keep you in the game; you won't find yourself slingshoting ahead of everyone like you used to--at least not until later in the game, and even then only once you've gained some experience on that level.

As you gain proficiency at the new level, you may eventually find yourself once again able to obtain some of those goodies.

 

[countrygrl]

i've already found myself sacraficing things with the non-financial civ's. i played some yesterday night and got pretty far in my game with ramses. i actually think i'm gonna win this one. i'm catching up with my techs, and i have way more land cottaged than the ai's do. i have culture bar at 20% right now. i got most of the good culture wonders too. i should finish it tonight.

with population. i think i lag in population not because i neglect food, or feel food is a problem, but because i slave a lot in the early game. with early cottaging, you cannot win if your non-fin.

 

[Sisiutil]

with population. i think i lag in population not because i neglect food, or feel food is a problem, but because i slave a lot in the early game. with early cottaging, you cannot win if your non-fin.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by that last statement, but I'm not sure I agree with it. I often play a CE with either of the (non-Financial) Caesars and win just fine.

The secret with Slavery is micro-management. Grow the city to the happiness cap, then keep accumulating food towards the next pop point. Time your builds so that just before the city grows beyond the happiness cap, you whip away 2 pop to complete whatever you're building. The city will grow back to its happiness cap (which is 1 lower because of whipping) within a turn or two. This keeps your cities close to their maximum population while maximizing your use of the whip.

Once I get Calendar and Code of Laws (and, thereby, access to several resources and the Caste System civic), I find it's time to switch out of Slavery (especially since, now in BtS, staying in it can result in debilitating slave revolts in your capital once it grows beyond 5 pop or so).

 

[Gumbolt]

Thing with higher levels you learn to expand to what you can afford. Theres no point rushing out 8 cities if the upkeep is too high. 20-30% science is acceptable for me. (short term)

I find holding 4 or 5 cities up to 1500bc is not an issue. As i grow to 7-8 cities i add court houses. If i have an early war i can sometimes find i have 9 or 10+ cities around 300bc. I offset this by court houses and a lower science rate. I make sure as my cities grow i have worked enough cottages or have used all the gold/ silver or Gems resources nearby. I go through phases of expansion follwed by development. Mean while amassing an army to take out the next civ.

I dont find playing non financial civs a problem. I think perhaps as i play a more aggressive game this overcomes this. I often go for the Oracle to try and get codes of law. This works on monarchy just fine. If a nearby civ has a Holy city i may play to invade this and take Alphabet. A holy city can generate oodles of gold for the economy per turn.

 

[countrygrl]

Sisuitil! i think i said the wrong thing! what i meant to say, was that it was impossible to not cottage early and win at the same time LOL! in other words, i have to cottage, and don't really build a whole lot of farms. i think i have my slavery mastered pretty good if i say so myself. usually i am done slaving after all the early wonders are built. sometimes i will chop/slave the hanging gardens (i like the engineer points) and even the great library if i get literature early enough. then i switch. but sometimes if i play a philosophical leader, i will slave/chop the oracle, get code of laws, and switch immediately to get all those great people going.

gumbolt, i have better luck city spamming with financial civs (obviously). but i don't think i really allow myself to get up to five cities until about 1ad. the maintainance gets crippling if you expand too much. in some of my first games i found myself at thirty, sometimes forty percent research.