Prison population crisis

if morality is relative does that mean murder and slavery are moral if a majority says so?

Morality is absolute and objective, otherwise might makes right. Our birthright includes life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, the only way to alienate these rights is to do the same to someone else first.
 
That's a pretty high correlation there skadistic. Now, if you'll excuse me if I get onto a high horse, but here goes.Correlation is not causation.

The admissibility of statistical evidence is governed by what is called the daubert principle. It's a court case you can look up. Its decision, in essence, is that statistical evidence must be developed in accordance to commonly accepted notions in the so-called expert community.So called. So a statistician,who can make statistics say what ever they want, can persuad the courts with manipulated numbers. What does that have to do with the fact that crack laws target crack and not the black race?

In anti-trust cases, this means that our models are quite elegant, and quite modern. This is mainly because the data available for such cases tends to be very well maintained and sufficient observations.Are crack laws anti-trust cases

For civil rights cases, ranging from housing price discrimination to incarceration rates to jim crow laws, the data happens to not be as robust, mainly because we can't increase the number of precincts in a jurisdiction, nor the number of voters. Bummer right? So they tend to use less sophisticated means. One of my responsibilities while attached to the CRD is to try and bring up the level of sophistication. One way I do this is by publishing articles with relevant caselaw.So how does housing discrimination add up to drug laws that target drugs and not races?

Basically, we have now derived that there is an 81% chance of a crack user being black, correct? I could say that the correlation is .81. I haven't inferred causality here. If we include socioeconomic status of "poor", I think you'd agree that the correlation would likely be similarly high.So. Does that show that crack laws target crack or blacks?

Now, if we run a simple linear regression, which is the court adopted method currently used, we're going to have a data problem. It is quite likely that the correlation between black and poor in the jurisdiction where the data is being pulled from is also quite high. This is called a problem of multi-collinearity.And that shows that crack laws target black instead of crack how?

Because there's no way to get around this problem currently, most civil rights litigation will accept correlation analysis, or alternatively, will except a simple bivariate regression equation with race as the explanatory factor. So long as the race variable is significant, in the eyes of the law, it does not matter if race is strongly correlated with education, political affiliation, income.Race is a factor? So the laws target blacks because there blacks or crackheads who happen to more likely be black?

In cases where I've prepared expert testimony for trial, or been said expert, this is the standard practice I've encountered. While I've tried to introduce more mathematical elegant models that show the interplay between multiple variables...I've either only been able to show that I cannot determine which variable is most causal (that they all need each other in order to be causal) or that the folks hearing the case just don't get my fancy statistics.Great your an expert. No show me the law about crack where it says blacks are the target and not crack.

Rather than tell folks that they're idiots and don't have a clue, I tried to explain how a legal court case involving racism claims is handled, especially the statistical evidence. I'm afraid here that the law (that which the supreme court justices ruled on) was quite much harsher on blacks than other racial groups, and thusly was overturned 7-2. The dissenting judges did not disagree with the notion that blacks had been more harshly sentenced than non blacks through this law. Rather, they dissented on the basis of a lack of procedure.
So black crackheads are punished more then white crackheads for commiting crack crimes? Or is it that crackheads are punished more then non-crackheads because crack causes more problems to the community?
 
Or is it that crackheads are punished more then non-crackheads because crack causes more problems to the community?
The crackheads need the powder to be imported into the country for the crack the be manufactured. Stop the powder from coming in, stop the crack. Why the 100-1 disparity in favor of powder when busting up the first part of the chain would put a stop to the latter end of the chain.
 
You didn't answer my question: are murder and slavery moral if the majority says so? Objective or absolute morality says they are immoral.
I've already covered murder upthread - it is a moral relativist's subset of killing. Prison labor is a moral relativist's subset of slavery.
 
it isn't a moral relativists subset of killing, if I kill someone trying to murder me I'm not immoral, the would-be murderer is immoral. You aren't gonna answer, are ya? Are murder and slavery moral if the majority says so? I didn't ask about prison labor or killing.
 
obviously skadistic didn't understand anything anyone said. shameful

Yeah thats it. Its got nothing to do with the fact that crack laws aren't racist, no one has proved they are or shown that they target blacks and not crack. Its a shame you didn't lean to hush up earlier when I pointed how utterly ignorant you are on the subject. Do you need me to go over it again? I'll be more then happy. Since you obviously don't understand.
 
Correlation is not causation.
Do you understand that the law does not require causation is proved?

So a statistician,who can make statistics say what ever they want, can persuad the courts with manipulated numbers. What does that have to do with the fact that crack laws target crack and not the black race?
In such a case, there will be two opposing experts. If the prosecution's expert is off-base, you'd think the defendants would be up to the task of taking them to school. You slightly accuse me of professional misconduct with your post. I do not appreciate that, especially since I am taking time to answer your post thoughtfully.

Are crack laws anti-trust cases
No, of course not, I am making a point about how the government litigates cases depends on what subject matter we are talking about.

So how does housing discrimination add up to drug laws that target drugs and not races?
These are examples of how the government litigates.

Does that show that crack laws target crack or blacks?
It has legal significance for such. The law does not require causality remember?

And that shows that crack laws target black instead of crack how?
Again, see that the law does not require causality proof

So the laws target blacks because there blacks or crackheads who happen to more likely be black?
I guess you could put it like that, yes.

Great your an expert. No show me the law about crack where it says blacks are the target and not crack
I don't have to because that is not the legal standard.


Rather than tell folks that they're idiots and don't have a clue, I tried to explain how a legal court case involving racism claims is handled, especially the statistical evidence. I'm afraid here that the law (that which the supreme court justices ruled on) was quite much harsher on blacks than other racial groups, and thusly was overturned 7-2. The dissenting judges did not disagree with the notion that blacks had been more harshly sentenced than non blacks through this law. Rather, they dissented on the basis of a lack of procedure.
Well at least you agreed with one part of what I said.
 
poor skadistic, you should stick to your blue collar world where people agree with you because you just repeat yourself.
 
Dead is dead. You've got to apply some moral relativism to get different punishments.
Im done with this one. Ive been on forums long enough to know when Im not gonna get a good discussion.
I stated my position and argument, it made sense and was consistent. You didnt refute it but rather replied with this, so ehhh, yeah, enough said.

Homie said:
Absolutely not. Each individual case needs to be judged.

I see where you are going with this, and you are still wrong, morals are absolute: If something is wrong for me to do, then they are wrong for you to do. That of course assumes that all circumstances are the same, because if the circumstances are different we have a different case. But that does not mean the morals have changed, it means the case changed.
QFT.
 
Correlation is not causation.
Do you understand that the law does not require causation is proved?

So a statistician,who can make statistics say what ever they want, can persuad the courts with manipulated numbers. What does that have to do with the fact that crack laws target crack and not the black race?
In such a case, there will be two opposing experts. If the prosecution's expert is off-base, you'd think the defendants would be up to the task of taking them to school. You slightly accuse me of professional misconduct with your post. I do not appreciate that, especially since I am taking time to answer your post thoughtfully.

Are crack laws anti-trust cases
No, of course not, I am making a point about how the government litigates cases depends on what subject matter we are talking about.

So how does housing discrimination add up to drug laws that target drugs and not races?
These are examples of how the government litigates.

Does that show that crack laws target crack or blacks?
It has legal significance for such. The law does not require causality remember?

And that shows that crack laws target black instead of crack how?
Again, see that the law does not require causality proof

So the laws target blacks because there blacks or crackheads who happen to more likely be black?
I guess you could put it like that, yes.

Great your an expert. No show me the law about crack where it says blacks are the target and not crack
I don't have to because that is not the legal standard.


Rather than tell folks that they're idiots and don't have a clue, I tried to explain how a legal court case involving racism claims is handled, especially the statistical evidence. I'm afraid here that the law (that which the supreme court justices ruled on) was quite much harsher on blacks than other racial groups, and thusly was overturned 7-2. The dissenting judges did not disagree with the notion that blacks had been more harshly sentenced than non blacks through this law. Rather, they dissented on the basis of a lack of procedure.
Well at least you agreed with one part of what I said.

So you can't prove crack laws target blacks and are racist. Crack laws target crack heads. The laws are not racist at all are they.
 
poor skadistic, you should stick to your blue collar world where people agree with you because you just repeat yourself.

Poor mrt. People in my world don't agree with me. And its not blue collared. But thanks for your useless quips from the peanut gallery.
 
So you can't prove crack laws target blacks and are racist. Crack laws target crack heads. The laws are not racist at all are they.

the consequence is black people are incarcerated for longer terms for less crack. intent and implimentation doesn't have to be racist for the penalty to affect mostly 1 race. you can get rid of a law for vad unintended consequences. look that term up.
 
the consequence is black people are incarcerated for longer terms for less crack. intent and implimentation doesn't have to be racist for the penalty to affect mostly 1 race. you can get rid of a law for vad unintended consequences. look that term up.

For longer terms for less crack compared to what? Affecting one race doesn't make it racist. Maybe blacks should stop smoking crack in large numbers.
 
JH, why doesn't the law require causality? That was obviously the reason for the greater punishments for crack cases. You don't honestly believe that the court system is racist and simply made harsher sentences for crack offenses just to be mean to the blackies? But that is what this new ruling is saying, which is bull.

Frankly, I don't care much about this case. Whether the law stands as it was or changes, I don't really care nor have an opinion on the matter. But I understand that skadistic objects to the grounds for this ruling, racism? Come on. Skadistic may be a bit aggressive in his debating (he always is), but he does have a point.

mrt, you might wanna leave this one to JH, you are not making yourself look good, and you are being inflammatory.
 
if morality is relative does that mean murder and slavery are moral if a majority says so?

Not necessarily. The majority might get to decide what is legal, but the only one who can decide what I view as moral is me. I can think of examples that the majority define as murder, but I see as moral. i.e. euthanasia. I can think of examples the majority define as moral, but someone else sees as murder. i.e. abortion. Or there's the death penalty, which I see as simply being state sanctioned murder, but others see as moral. Or a revenge killing, by someone who doesn't trust the state to hand out sufficient punishment. I think that's immoral, so does the state, but the person doing it thinks it's moral, even though being caught and punished themselves might be a consequence. Murder's just a definition, and killing someone is not automatically moral or immoral.

Morality is absolute and objective, otherwise might makes right.

Rubbish. I live in a society where morality is neither absolute nor objective, but it's not a society where might makes right.
 
Moral is what God decides is moral. I don't care what you and anyone else believes is moral or not.

So you let someone else decide your morality for you. Does that make it either absolute or objective? After all, what god (via whichever religion) says is moral now is different to what god said was moral a few thousand years ago, isn't it? If god's message changes, is that because the absolute, objective morality that's a fundamental part of the universe changed, or is it because god thinks society now should be run differently to society then?
 
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