Prison population crisis

[skadistic]

its economics skadistic, it is all economics

Thats what I've been saying. It is economics and not race. Thanks for proving my point for me.

 

[mrt144]

Thats what I've been saying. It is economics and not race. Thanks for proving my point for me.

skadistic, no one is saying the intent of the law was to penalize blacks disproportionately. that has been the result of it though. it was an unintended consequence to the problem of penalizing cheap cocaine freebase.

 

[Pannonius]

Even the ones currently incarerated for shooting at a junkie who invaded their home?

I said criminals.

 

[Bill3000]

Moral is what God decides is moral. I don't care what you and anyone else believes is moral or not.

No, it's not.

Divine command theory is bunk, and has a ton of problems with it. You're only doing the easy way out. If you're going to have a morality system that has a freaking objective ground, at least do something like Kantianism.

 

[Trajan12]

I said criminals.

Jaywalkers?

 

[Homie]

No, it's not.

Divine command theory is bunk, and has a ton of problems with it. You're only doing the easy way out. If you're going to have a morality system that has a freaking objective ground, at least do something like Kantianism.

Yeah, who am I gonna listen to:
God, who is omniscient and omnipotent or
Bill, some guy on OT.

 

[JerichoHill]

skadistic, no one is saying the intent of the law was to penalize blacks disproportionately. that has been the result of it though. it was an unintended consequence to the problem of penalizing cheap cocaine freebase.

Indeed. Intent is considered a bonus if it can be identified but not finding intent does not mean that a law will not be considered racially bias. What matter more for legal matters is outcome, not intent.

 

[Bill3000]

Yeah, who am I gonna listen to:
God, who is omniscient and omnipotent or
Bill, some guy on OT.

Me, cuz I'm smarter than you.

Go look it up if you actually want to bother to learn something.

 

[illram]

Because of the high intercorrelation amongst many demographic variables and race, causality is incredibly difficult to prove in anything other than a single variable regression. It's due to a data problem called multi-correlation. Courts understand math and data problems, so what is legally signficant acknowledges these difficulties

I've been through three years of law school and have worked in the courts for two of them, and I have no clue what you are talking about. Can you rephrase that?

And courts definitely do NOT understand math and data problems. Logic is hard enough. That's why we get expert witnesses.

 

[sanabas]

I don't see where you got this from what I said. I said that according to Christian doctrine no one does everything right, we all need salvation. And worshipping a false god is obviously wrong, btw.

If they did manage to do nearly everything right, say on a similar level to various saints, except that they didn't accept Jesus, and continued to pray to their version of god, where would they be come judgement day? In or out?

First of all, even if He was petty I would still choose to do His will, after all, He decides my eternal destiny, no matter how petty He was I don't want to endure an eternity in pain.

Fair enough. Does this mean that one of the reasons to follow an all-loving god's directions is fear of punishment?

A lifetime, sure, but an eternity, never.
Secondly, He is not petty, and the questions regarding salvation for people who have not heard of Jesus are typical questions that I'm sure you have seen dozens of times on forum debates. If the answers you were given there didn't make sense to you, I will probably not be able to do any better. Those questions are just as typical as "If God is all-powerful, why is there evil in the world".

Sure, but I haven't seen one of those answers for a while, and mostly, the first time I question an answer, the answers stop coming. So far you're actually answering stuff, which is a big step up from a lot of people with similar views. Secondly, you seem to be able to see some of the apparent contradictions, but can resolve them to your own satisfaction, which is another big step up.

To pick one example, one of the answers I've seen is that people in societies that haven't heard of Jesus are fine, because they haven't actually rejected him. People who have heard of Jesus, but choose to worship differently are stuffed, because they have rejected him. Which doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. (And has also been given as an excuse for why missionaries should be shot on sight.) So I'm still curious ti hear your answer to some of those apparent contradictions.

Catholics do not worship the Pope, nor what he says. Just because they are wrong on a particular doctrinal or liturgical matter, doesn't mean they are wrong about everything. Catholics are still Christians, we agree on most things, and we agree on the important things.

Catholics don't worship the pope, but catholics do accept the pope as being god's mouthpiece on earth. And catholics do accept that when the pope is saying things as god's mouthpiece, they must be correct.

I believe they are correct because they make sense to me. Somethings I am even undecided on because they are complicated, and they are not important to salvation nor to how we should live our lives, so it doesn't even matter. E.g. what revelation means, the rapture, predestination etc...

Fair enough. Though I'd say predestination is a pretty big one. And I still don't understand why who you pray to, and how you pray, is such a big deal. Isn't there a quote somewhere of god saying that whenever people are doing good, they're doing his work, regardless of whose name they do it in. And whenever people do bad, they're not, even if they invoke his name?

Really, I find this a little hard to believe. Anyways, it doesn't deal with salvation, I would still count them Christians. It's strict, but that' their prerogative. I'm not Catholic.

It's only wiki, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casti_Connubii That page also suggests some protestant churches have changed their official position on birth control too.

 

[Homie]

Me, cuz I'm smarter than you.

Go look it up if you actually want to bother to learn something.

.................

 

[Homie]

If they did manage to do nearly everything right, say on a similar level to various saints, except that they didn't accept Jesus, and continued to pray to their version of god, where would they be come judgement day? In or out?

WHat do you think? He'd be out, of course. To you, an atheist/agnostic it is all versions of the same thing, no biggie. To God and to believers, it is a very big deal.

Fair enough. Does this mean that one of the reasons to follow an all-loving god's directions is fear of punishment?

Yes, and also the opposite, reward for following God and his commands.
God is loving, fair and good, but even if He wasn't you should still do what He wants if you know what's good for you.

Sure, but I haven't seen one of those answers for a while, and mostly, the first time I question an answer, the answers stop coming. So far you're actually answering stuff, which is a big step up from a lot of people with similar views. Secondly, you seem to be able to see some of the apparent contradictions, but can resolve them to your own satisfaction, which is another big step up.

Thanks. And I will address those questions in a seperate post. I haven't dsicussed those questions in many years, and though they are common, they are not easy. All I know for sure is that regardless of what your personal theology is, doing good to others and following God is good and pays off in the long run, and that is the gist of the Bible. Jesus said it best:
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22:37-40
And 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matt 7:12

Fair enough. Though I'd say predestination is a pretty big one.

I have lots of predestination friends myself, it doesn't affect how we practice our faith or live our lives, it is simply a disagreement on a theological issue.

And I still don't understand why who you pray to, and how you pray, is such a big deal.

How we pray doesn't matter, but who we pray to does. God clearly hates idolatry. I see what you are saying though, does it matter if we call Him Allah or Jehovah? God's hatred of idolatry as illustrated in the Bible solely deals with paganism (many gods), so what about the other monotheistic faiths? I believe that they are different enough to warrant being different from the God of the Bible, and thus false gods. In particular because the Koran paints a different portrait of God, especially when it comes to Jesus, who is a great prophet, but nothing more.

Isn't there a quote somewhere of god saying that whenever people are doing good, they're doing his work, regardless of whose name they do it in. And whenever people do bad, they're not, even if they invoke his name?

Kind of, I believe you are talking about this passage:
49"Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."

50"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."
Luke 9:49-50

It's only wiki, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casti_Connubii That page also suggests some protestant churches have changed their official position on birth control too.

Hey, wiki is a trustable source in my opinion, I believe it.

At the time, there was no official church position on any non-procreative purposes of intercourse.

Hmmm, from reading your link I gather than the church believed that the purpose of sex was to bear children, but it doesn't specify that sex for other purposes is sinful.

I'll try to see if I can address your other questions.

 

[Bill3000]

.................

Poor homie, not bothering to be interested in actually knowing metaethics, but only instead interested in instant self-gratification.

 

[sanabas]

WHat do you think? He'd be out, of course. To you, an atheist/agnostic it is all versions of the same thing, no biggie. To God and to believers, it is a very big deal.

To me, that is petty. That in all other ways, they act like a saint, but because they see Jesus as just a prophet, god won't let them in after judgement day. Isn't Jesus' status just a theological/doctrinal issue?

Yes, and also the opposite, reward for following God and his commands.
God is loving, fair and good, but even if He wasn't you should still do what He wants if you know what's good for you.

So you obey god's wishes because he's all powerful, rather than because he's all good? I thought some of the most revered figures in christianity were those who put following what was good above following what those who had power over them said. There's a long, long list of religious martyrs. Why wouldn't the same thing apply if god's message isn't loving, fair & good? Does god value blind obedience over ability to act morally? If god takes a personal interest, and decides to test you, is he testing whether you have the strength to act morally, regardless of consequence, or is he testing whether you have the devotion to obey him, regardless of morality? If it's the latter, does that mean 'I was just following orders' is an acceptable defense?

Thanks. And I will address those questions in a seperate post. I haven't dsicussed those questions in many years, and though they are common, they are not easy. All I know for sure is that regardless of what your personal theology is, doing good to others and following God is good and pays off in the long run, and that is the gist of the Bible. Jesus said it best:
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22:37-40
And 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matt 7:12

So to go back to the start of the post, which of those two commandments are being broken by muslims or jews who love the lord their god with all their hearts, and love their neighbour as themselves? If they're not breaking either of those, why would they get rejected on judgement day?

I have lots of predestination friends myself, it doesn't affect how we practice our faith or live our lives, it is simply a disagreement on a theological issue.

Sorry, but I can't stop laughing at that one. Cos I keep reading it as 'predestination doesn't affect how we live our lives'.

Besides, I see predestination as much more than just something to disagree on that doesn't affect everything else. If there is predestination, then how can we make moral choices? How can people be excluded on judgement day for stuff they couldn't possibly change?

How we pray doesn't matter, but who we pray to does. God clearly hates idolatry. I see what you are saying though, does it matter if we call Him Allah or Jehovah? God's hatred of idolatry as illustrated in the Bible solely deals with paganism (many gods), so what about the other monotheistic faiths? I believe that they are different enough to warrant being different from the God of the Bible, and thus false gods. In particular because the Koran paints a different portrait of God, especially when it comes to Jesus, who is a great prophet, but nothing more.

Fair enough. It still seems to me that the major, #1, most important issue, over and above how you treat others, how your morality works, and everything else, is whether your worship is sufficient, and of the right sort. A god who uses that as the most important criteria for judging people is one that I judge to be not worthy of me.

What about those of us who don't pray? I don't worship any false gods, am I a chance of getting in?

What's the point of prayer anyway?

Kind of, I believe you are talking about this passage:
49"Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."

50"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."
Luke 9:49-50

I don't think that's it. Though it's along similar lines. I'll see what else I can find. Did any of the other gospels mention the same/similar incident?

Hey, wiki is a trustable source in my opinion, I believe it.

Hmmm, from reading your link I gather than the church believed that the purpose of sex was to bear children, but it doesn't specify that sex for other purposes is sinful.

Yeah, it seemed to be a widely held belief, rather than an officially held belief. So the official line got clarified. Although apparently it was the official position that marriage, sex & kids was only for those not strong enough to handle celibacy and just serving the lord. Which is also a rather odd position, that kids, and the ongoing survival of the human race, only happens due to people being weak. Which is probably why they changed it.

 

[Tabasco Sauce]

Thats what I've been saying. It is economics and not race. Thanks for proving my point for me.

Oh, you were right about the south freedom thing, I painted in broad sweeps, and I deserved the hammering I got, lol.

 

[Homie]

OK, I've just finished reading a lenghty article on what you asked, sanabas.
What happens to people who have never heard of Christ, in the present, and before Christ's human incarnation on earth.
Here it is:
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hnohear.html
By, the way, this site and tektonics.org are sites you should bookmark. These people really know their Bible, Hebrew, Greek, history, cultural understanding and the proper way to approach a problem.

Jesus is required for salvation, but for those that have not heard of Him, God will impart that salvation on them anyway, as long as they honestly seek to live good, moral lives. This even applies to people that have heard of Jesus, but haven't really heard of Him, but have rather been given a slanted, incorrect portrait of Jesus. E.g. if all your knowledge of Jesus comes from your atheist teacher who hates Christianity and national geographic channel's "documentaries" about Him, then you haven't really heard.

I think all in all, God is just and fair, scripture says so, and so He will judge each individual case. Also, God hates lip service, but loves true adherence to the faith, which is shown through our actions:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

Read this passage many times if you must, it is important to the discussion at hand. It is not so much that God tallies our good and bad deeds and makes a calculated decision on our salvation. It is rather that God looks at what we do and the motive for doing it to indicate if we are truly good and moral or not.

The salvation will not be given to those who actively and consciously reject Jesus as savior.

Since salvation in the Christian faith is not based on intellect and knowledge, it cannot be required to know a certain number of facts to be saved. So like some people in the OT were saved (Abraham, Noah, David, etc...), in fact heroes of the faith, as mentioned Hebrews, likewise it is possible that some muslims are saved if they live moral lives (which shows intent) and do not reject Christ. I know you won't believe this, but there are examples of Jesus actually physically revealing himself to muslims, even imams, and they have come to faith in Jesus.

It is my opinion that God sees the heart of people, some people do not really know Jesus - but are good, and God being omniscient, knows that they would accept Him if they knew. And that in a way they have accepted Him in following with His teachings, even if they are not privy to the Bible, because "the law is written in their hearts" (that's a paraphrase from St. Paul in the Bible). Likewise, I think many slap on themselves a Christian label, and they might even believe in the historical Jesus, but God sees their hearts and condemns them for their evil.
Note: There are very strong Biblical passages to support what I have said (especially the last paragraph), but it takes forever to dig those up, because I never know where stuff is located in the Bible even though I am very knowledgeable about its content.

 

[Homie]

I know this last post was a mess, I simply wrote down my thoughts. Also, these are my ideas, and I admit that they may not even be correct. The notions of salvation, heaven and hell, punishments and rewards, judgement of works or faith, are all difficult topics.

 

[Homie]

To me, that is petty. That in all other ways, they act like a saint, but because they see Jesus as just a prophet, god won't let them in after judgement day. Isn't Jesus' status just a theological/doctrinal issue?

No, Jesus is the foundation for our faith. If He is seen as nothing but a man that is heresy. Most muslims today have not heard about Jesus, except a wrongful image of Him as portrayed in the koran and their society. But if they actively and consciously reject the real Jesus because of the evil in their hearts, they will not be saved.

The pharisees were outwardly good and moral, but Jesus looked into their hearts and saw pride and showboating as the real reasons for the supposed piety.

 

[Berzerker]

The only one who can decide whether I think a killing is moral or immoral is me. If I think it's immoral, the majority can't make me think it's moral. If I think it's moral, the majority cant make me think it's immoral.

As above. Some killings are justifiable, some are not. What the majority has to say doesn't change that. What the majority consider murder doesn't change that. The majority can decide what's legal. By definition, murder's not legal. But what's moral, and what's legal, aren't the same thing.

Okay, now what if you're wrong? Lets say you've decided a killing is morally justifiable and you're wrong?

 

[Berzerker]

Yep, you got it. To some extent I am, but not fully. E.g. without God's laws I would probably have sex before marriage, I wouldn't realize that I had to respect my parents.

Your parents dont need God to teach you to respect them But where did "God" say sex before marriage is immoral? I'm not talking about some prophet, but God. Be fruitful and multiply said nothing about marriage or sex before marriage. If that was a moral period in our history, ie before "sin" entered the Garden, then multiplying aint a sin.